Lyn: Well… Ross and I are here again, brightlords and ladies, with—brace yourselves—another Dalinar flashback chapter. Strap yourselves in for a good Blackthorn-ing, because boy does Dalinar ever deliver on the death and destruction in this one (though not as much so, of course, as he will later on ::shudder::).
Ross: Yeah, I’d say things are smoldering right now, but later on, they really catch fire.
L: They sure do. A glorious, glorious dumpster fire.
I have to say, as much as I love this book in its entirety, I am so ready for Part One to be over. It drags a little for me, probably because of the lack of Kaladin and Bridge 4. (MAH BOYS)
R: Well, it’s going to end strong with B4. Including a certain scout…
L: True, I am a bit biased when it comes to Part Two. But overall I much prefer the flow of the rest of the book once we get past this section.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There are no spoilers for other Cosmere novels in this week’s reread. However, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
Buy the Book
Oathbringer
WHO: Young!Dalinar, Shallan
WHERE: ???, Urithiru
WHEN: 1148 for the Dalinar flashback chapter, and 1174.1.4.3 for the present.
Chapter 26 finds us with Dalinar and Evi, the latter of whom is burning prayers for the safety of her “near husband” in the upcoming battle. Gavilar gives Dalinar a mission—kill Kalanor, the leader of the opposing force and a Shardbearer. Dalinar gives in to the Thrill and plows a swath of destruction through the enemy army—but when the proverbial dust clears, he’s disturbed to see that among the fallen (slain by his hand) are some of his own elites. When Kalanor finally rides out to meet him, they battle until Dalinar destroys part of the other man’s Shardplate. Kalanor retreats up a nearby rock formation, where the two continue their duel. Dalinar kills him in an act of “mercy” and descends to claim his Shards before nearly attacking his own brother in a fit of Thrill-induced powerlust.
Moving back to the present, we return to Shallan, who is sitting in a meeting, sketching and only half paying attention to the events that are transpiring. She is approached briefly by Malata, then Ialai Sadeas arrives and pronounces Amaram to be the heir of the Sadeas Princedom. Adolin, incensed by this, leaves, and Shallan follows. They have a discussion in which Shallan learns—and promptly shuts away—that Kaladin was the one who probably killed her brother. Adolin goes to check on his father’s horse and Shallan goes down to check on her “squires,” who are surprised to see her.
Threshold of the storm
Title: Blackthorn Unleashed; Playing Pretend
“Bring me Kalanor, Brother,” Gavilar said. “We need the Blackthorn today.”
“All you need do is unleash him.”
L: Jeez. Dalinar let off the leash is a terror.
R: A terror who commits some of the very same sins as Moash in this chapter. Killing his own elites, Shardstabbing a surrendering opponent through the face. His fearsome reputation was bought and paid for, and I really can’t blame any of the leaders who scoffed at his initial overtures of peace and unity.
L: I can’t believe I’m saying this, but at least Moash had a legitimate reason to do the terrible thing he did. Dalinar’s just cruel and uncaring. The man is completely lacking in empathy. (Oh storms I just defended Moash, quick, someone check me over for brain-controlling alien slugs.)
That refined diction, that perfect face, that crisp uniform… [Amaram] was what every soldier aspired to be.
I’m not the only one who is good at playing pretend, she thought.
L: UGH. AMARAM. We hates him, Precious. ::ahem:: But aside from my hatred, it’s pretty obvious where the chapter title for this one comes from. We’ve also got Shallan playing a little pretend of her own (not that this is anything new for her), when Adolin confronts her with the information about exactly where Amaram got that Shardblade. Shallan promptly shuts that information away, not willing to think about Kaladin having killed her brother—and pretending that everything’s fine. (Spoiler alert: it’s not.)
Heralds
Chapter 26 has Nale in all four positions. He is associated with the attributes “Just” and “Confident,” and if there’s one thing that Dalinar is in this chapter, it’s confident. And not just Dalinar—everyone else is confident in Dalinar’s abilities, too. Except, perhaps, Evi.
Chapter 27 depicts Shalash in all four places, almost certainly because this is a Shallan POV chapter in which she spends a great deal of time drawing.
Icon
L: I’m not gonna lie, I forgot to note these as I was doing my initial read through and now the book’s in the other room and I’m all nested in the blankets on the couch with my laptop and I don’t want to get up, soooo… I’m just going to assume that these are the inverted Kholin glyph and Pattern. I figure I’ve got a 90% chance of being right.
R: You’re correct!
L: Hooray for laziness.
Epigraph:
I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand.
–From Oathbringer, preface.
L: No idea what to say about this. Good on you, Dalinar? Way to… not… back down? ::looks at Ross:: I got nothing.
R: I think it’s just Dalinar doing his best to convince the reader that Vorinism isn’t going to help in the coming battle. He’s bonded to all that remains of the Almighty’s power, and he’s met Heralds. He’s not saying he had a crisis of faith and backed off to agnosticism, he’s saying he met Jesus in a restaurant in Des Moines, and they caught up on the past 2000 years or so while giving the entire city an all-you-can-eat bread and fish buffet.
Stories & Songs
Enthralled, he cut down foe after foe, sensing a strange rhythm to the fighting, as if the blows of his sword needed to fall to the dictates of some unseen beat.
L: A RHYTHM, YOU SAY? Okay, silly gifs aside, that’s veeerrrrrry interesting. If the Unmade are of Odium, as Pattern says:
“…it is not a thing of us. It is a thing of him.”
“An ancient spren of Odium. Delightful.”
then why is the Thrill (which, reminder, comes from the Unmade Ner… Narg…. Ugh I hate spelling this, Nergaoul) seeming to harmonize with the Listeners’ ideology?! Is it just a random coincidence? Knowing Sanderson, I doubt it.
R: Yeahhhh, no way that’s random. But there are rhythms and rhythms, you know? Praise vs. Spite. But Nergaoul isn’t the only one operating on the Listeners’ carrier wave, since we see the Fused speaking to the rhythms when they give Moash Jezrien’s Honorblade. Soooo, if all the “evil” rhythms come from Odium or the Unmade, where were the “good” rhythms being broadcast from?
L: All of the “Odium” rhythms seem to be corruptions of the “good” ones. I think the good ones are just completely natural to this world (and hence not really being broadcast from anywhere in particular, they’re just the background beat that has always existed here), and Odium co-opted them for his own use. I have literally no textual evidence for this, mind.
R: My only complaint with that is that we still don’t have much evidence for Cultivation’s involvement other than crem, which is basically manna for crustaceans, and a primal pulsing heartbeat feels like a thing Cultivation might be behind.
L: That’s a good point… Cultivation is a huge unknown, and that would be really cool. But would you be positing that Cultivation was around before the humans arrived, or that the Listeners only started attuning the rhythms after she got there?
Relationships & Romances
“Hail the Blackthorn, men! Hail him!” Gloryspren burst around Gavilar, golden orbs that rotated around his head like a crown.
* * *
I give way to Gavilar in all things. Let him have the throne, let him have love.
I must never be king.
L: The relationship between the brothers here is really sad. Gavilar trusts Dalinar seemingly implicitly—I wonder if he has any idea at all about Dalinar’s long-held flame for his wife. My spheres would be on “no.”
R: It’s interesting that, while Gavilar exults in the unification, Dalinar draws a lone shamespren. Is that merely because of his less-than-honorable battlefield tactics? Or is part of it tied to the unburned glyphward from Navani that Dalinar carries in his pocket?
L: I think it was just him being ashamed that after he was thinking of killing his brother, Gavilar turns around and gives all the glory of this battle to Dalinar without any hesitation. That’s pretty telling, I think. Gavilar’s not just a bloodthirsty warlord like some other Alethi we could mention, ::cough Dalinar cough:: he’s honorable and all too happy to give credit where credit is earned. In another story, the animosity between brothers might have burst into the flames of an all-out war (GRRM, is that you?) but not here. Their relationship, despite Dalinar’s one brief fling with contemplation of murder, remains intact.
“Shallan… that Blade. You know where Amaram got that, right?”
“On the battlefield?”
“From Kaladin.” Adolin raised his hand to his head. “The bridgeboy insisted that he’d saved Amaram’s life by killing a Shardbearer.”
Shallan’s throat grew tight. “Oh.”
Tuck it away. Don’t think about it.
L: As much as it pains me to admit it, I can’t blame Shallan for not wanting to think about this, especially since she’s still kind-of-sort-of subconsciously got the hots for our favorite Bridgeboy.
R: At least part of her does.
L: A part veiled in secrecy.
Who would want to consider the possibility that your crush murdered your own brother? That’s some grade-A nightmare fuel right there, and Harmony knows that Shallan’s already got a noodle-full of that.
Bruised & Broken
He felt sad to have to engage a Shardbearer, instead of continuing his fight against the ordinary men. No more laying waste; he now had only one man to kill.
He could vaguely remember a time when facing lesser challenges hadn’t sated him as much as a good fight against someone capable. What had changed?
L: Okay, so. I’m putting this in Bruised and Broken, because honestly? Dalinar’s broken here. He just doesn’t know it yet. This is some bona-fide sociopathic (psychopathic?) thinking. Now, it’s not all Dalinar’s fault—he’s being influenced by Nergaoul (HA I GOT IT ON THE FIRST TRY) here, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s considering cutting down swaths of practically unarmed men enjoyable, never mind “more” enjoyable than a challenging one-on-one fight. How twisted do you have to be to think, “Yes, yes… I could fight an armored knight like me, that’s true, but it would take a long time to kill him and there’s a whole FIELD of easy pickings right THERE! The more blood the better!”
Young!Dalinar is awful. Just awful.
R: You’re right. It feels like this flashback chapter might be the nadir of his downward trudge into dishonor. And then you remember he burned a city because people ambushed him….
“It must be convenient to tell yourself that your murders belong to the Almighty instead.”
“They’d better not belong to him!” Dalinar said. “I worked hard for those kills, Kalanor. The Almighty can’t have them; he can merely credit them to me when weighing my soul!”
“Then let them weigh you down to Damnation itself.”
L: I gotta credit Kalanor here for an absolutely A+ retort. Classy AF. Not quite mic-drop worthy, but a zinger for sure.
R: I was going to make a snappy quip about the physical impossibility of stuff weighing you down to another planet in the solar system, but then I remembered that Our Heroes have access to the Gravitation Surge and could totally do that and now my joke doesn’t work. I have a sad.
“Mercy,” he whispered.
“This is a mercy,” Dalinar said, and struck him straight through the face with his Shardblade.
L: Dude. DUDE. Dalinar. Not cool.
R: Future!Kaladin, when finally having this story read to him as Our Heroes are enjoying a fine bottle of violet wine, will mutter, “Storms, you pulled a Moash?!” And Dalinar will clock him a solid one across the jaw and declare that it is still Too Soon. And it will be.
L: At least Kalanor’s little infant son wasn’t right there. (Although… Dalinar does get around to killing someone in front of his son eventually.)
Shouldn’t the strongest rule? Why should he sit back so often, listening to men chat instead of war?
There. There was the man who held what he wanted. A throne… a throne and more. The woman Dalinar should have been able to claim. A love he’d been forced to abandon, for what reason?
L: And here it is, the final step he’d need to take to become a true tyrant. He had every reason to take it, by his own logic. But he drew back from that one, final (so very final) act. What happened to Evi was horrible, but at least it wasn’t on purpose.
R: So…. sometimes it’s important not to take The Next Step? Or is the idea to never walk toward mindless barbarity?
L: I think it depends on which path that step would carry you down. There are endless paths stretching before us, and The Next Step should carry you down one leading in an upwards direction—not down towards Damnation.
Squires & Sidekicks
“Orders, sir?” asked Rien.
“Stay out of my way,” Dalinar said, lowering his faceplate.
L: Again, we see the stark difference between how Kaladin (and Adolin) lead, and how Dalinar did. Did he actually give a damn about any of his elites? I wonder. It’s obvious that Dalinar thinks he can handle this himself, but did he ever spare a thought as to doing it himself in order to spare the lives of his men (as Kaladin certainly would have)? I doubt it. He may respect them for their fighting prowess, but respect doesn’t always equal care. I think that he only cares about them in so much as they can get him what he wants.
R: He certainly seemed to at one point. But, as he gave in more and more to the Thrill, his essential humanity seeped away.
Dalinar grinned in satisfaction, then grew chill. A few of those bodies with burned eyes—three men he could spot—wore blue. His own men, bearing the armband of the elites.
L: Yeah. Great job, Dalinar.
R: In his defense, he does feel bad about it. Though he also refuses to acknowledge responsibility for their deaths, claiming simply that they “fell” in battle.
L:
“If they want to,” Malata said. “Things don’t have to be the way they were. Why should they? It didn’t work out so well the last time for the Radiants, did it?”
L: Remember how I said I don’t trust her? STILL DON’T, despite the fact that she’s probably got a pretty good point here. I’m almost certain that things aren’t going to play out the way they have for any of the previous Desolations. Something’s gonna shake up, because if it doesn’t, we’re still stuck in this loop of Desolations and that just ain’t good story-telling.
R: I can’t help wondering if what’s going to end up changing is a fundamental rebalancing of allegiances, with some Honor/Cultivation Surges defecting to Odium, and some Voidish Surges defecting back.
Places & Peoples
“While [Evi] spoke of Jezrien and Kelek, she said their names strangely; Yaysi and Kellai. And she made no mention of the Almighty—instead she spoke of something she called the One, a heretical tradition the ardents told him came from Iri.”
* * *
“If you must fight, do it knowing that each death wounds the One. For we are all people in Yaysi’s sight.”
L: These two quotes are really fascinating to me. It makes total sense that different cultures would have different names for the Heralds—we see that often enough in religions in our world, after all. It’s the part about the One that I’d specifically like to pick out, which is why this discussion is down here in Peoples and Places rather than Stories and Songs.
So, the concept of One lifeforce of which we are all a part isn’t strange to consider to anyone who’s a fan of fantasy. Final Fantasy 7 and Fullmetal Alchemist are the two that immediately sprang to my mind, and I’m certain there are a ton more.
R: Right here, we should really go re-read Ym’s interlude in Words of Radiance, I-2. Ym tells his street urchin “customer” a lot about the One.
L: Oh jeez. I had forgotten all about Ym. ::starts sobbing all over again:: Let’s revisit that, shall we?
“Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many—us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things. … Iriali need no preaching, only experience. As each experience is different, it brings completeness. Eventually, all will be gathered back in—when the Seventh Land is attained—and we will once again become One.”
L: Do you think this might have broader Cosmere connotations?
R: Honestly? It’s entirely possible that this right here is that Ym’s story miiiight just be a Reader’s Digest condensed version of the entire Adonalsium storyline. Long ago, all was One, but the One had to split itself into many in order to gain experience. In order to maybe comprehend itself? Give Ym’s interlude a read with an eye to the Shattering, and the potential reason behind it, and see what you think after.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Idly, he wondered that it would take to actually earn the ardents’ displeasure.
L: Oh, you’ll figure that out before long, Young!Dalinar, never you worry.
R: Heresy’s always an excellent place to start…
“Highprince,” Dalinar finally said.
“Highprince,” Amaram said back, tipping his head.
“Bastard,” Adolin said.
L: Once again Adolin proves that he is indeed a blessing.
Weighty Words
Was there a way she could learn to leave her illusions behind her? They’d need Stormlight to keep going…
L: I’m reminded here of Mary Robinette Kowal’s Glamourist series, and how they learned to weave folds of glamour into glass in order to move them about. Maybe Shallan can just tie her illusions to spheres, like little batteries, and hence they’ll be self-sustainable and whoever’s got it can move it around…
R: Did that happen already? It sounds familiar. Perhaps one of our intrepid Rereaders will clue us in.
“Well,” Shallan whispered, “she’s annoying.”
“Mmm…” Pattern said. “It will be worse when she starts destroying things.”
“Destroying?”
“Dustbringer,” Pattern said. “Her spren… mmm… they like to break what is around them. They want to know what is inside.”
L: Like… like people? Physically? Emotionally? Did they used to go around dissecting people to figure out how they ticked, or doing psychological experiments on them to try to determine how their minds worked? (Maybe I’ve just been reading too much Stephen King again.)
R: Or Kingkiller (where there’s a story of Gibea, one of the Amyr, who performed horrific medical experiments on living subjects and advanced medicine by hundreds of years for the greater good.)
L: Oh jeez, I just had a thought. If Malata winds up being instrumental in discovering how to power Urithiru because she and her spren break stuff to figure out how it works I’ll be really mad. I don’t want to like her…
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Ryshadium? Yes… he could see the spren trailing after them in the air. Musicspren, for some reason.
L: Very interesting. If there’s something to the theory that the Ryshadium were native to Roshar, might this have some link to the Listeners and their Rhythms? Sanderson’s been awfully dodgy in his answers at signings about these. He’s said that they’re invested, and that they evolved symbiotically with spren, which… doesn’t tell us much.
R: I agree. I feel like the Ryshadium are probably tapped into the rhythms somehow. But only the good ones, because they’re magic horsies, and magic horsies shouldn’t listen to death metal.
L: As someone who really likes death metal, I would love a magic horsie who listens to it.
Passionspren—like tiny crystalline flakes—dropped around him.
L: I just realized that no one on Roshar probably has any idea what snow looks like, because that’s exactly what I imagine here.
R: Wouldn’t the Thaylens?
L: You’re the keeper of the Rosharan weather patterns, you tell us! I got the impression that the only weather on the planet was the highstorm/weeping cycle.
R: I’m not sure how it falls, but the Horneaters are very well acquainted with snow. They build snow forts as children (or childs, as Rock says). I’d imagine that a lot of the actual precipitation in the Frostlands during the Weeping might fall as snow.
L: Ah, so up in the higher elevations. That would make sense.
Awfully Abominable Artwork
She finished her sketch, then tipped it toward Pattern, holding the sketchbook with her sleeved safehand. He rippled up from his post to inspect her drawing: the slot obstructed by a mashed-up figure with bulging, inhuman eyes.
L: Yep. That’s what it is, all right.
R: I feel like Brandon missed a chance at working another Lovecraftian adjective in here. We’re still working up to eldritch, but I wouldn’t have minded something a bit milder.
Quality Quotations
He was not a man. He was judgment.
* * *
Shallan wasn’t certain what she thought of the idea of a “true soldier” being the type who didn’t care about politics. Shouldn’t the why of what a man was doing be important to him?
Well, that about sums it up for this week! As always, please join us for more discussion in the comments, and tune back in to the same Blackthorn-time and the same Blackthorn-channel next week, when Alice returns and we discuss Chapter Twenty-Eight!
Ross is off to spin out looney theories all by himself now, as Alice Arneson will be returning next week! If you absolutely must have more of his typey-typey, check out his writing blog.
Lyndsey is looking forward to eventually seeing Hereditary, once she can find someone to keep an eye on her toddler. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
I recall being very surprised that this revelation to Shallan about Kaladin and Helaren didn’t amount to more. I was also pleased though, because I don’t need our protagonists at each other’s throats over this sort of thing.
@@@@@1. soursavior
I felt the same way annoyed that it didn’t add up to more but I get the impression that this will have consequences later on in the series.
Its fits with Shallan burying / ignoring the truths she can’t bring herself to face though.
She does this later in the book, for the infiltration team in Kholinar. She ties the illusions that make Adolin, Kaladin, and Elhokar look like different people to gemstones that they carry.
@3, I thought I remembered something about that, but we just couldn’t place when it would have happened to check on it! Thanks!
L: I’m reminded here of Mary Robinette Kowal’s Glamourist series, and how they learned to weave folds of glamour into glass in order to move them about. Maybe Shallan can just tie her illusions to spheres, like little batteries, and hence they’ll be self-sustainable and whoever’s got it can move it around…
R: Did that happen already? It sounds familiar. Perhaps one of our intrepid Rereaders will clue us in.
(@3) I don’t have the book with me at the moment, but didn’t Shallan also tie an illusion to Pattern when she and Kaladin were fighting the chasmfiend after falling into the chasms on the way back to the warcamps in Words of Radiance?
“Who would want to consider the possibility that your crush murdered your own brother?”
Definitely not murder. Killed in battle yes, but not murder. And had it coming, lest we forget he had no qualms about cutting through the soldiers with his shardblade.
“L: Remember how I said I don’t trust her? STILL DON’T, despite the fact that she’s probably got a pretty good point here. I’m almost certain that things aren’t going to play out the way they have for any of the previous Desolations. Something’s gonna shake up, because if it doesn’t, we’re still stuck in this loop of Desolations and that just ain’t good story-telling.”
LOL, shots fired at both The Wheel of Time and The Dark Tower.
@5 – They were asking about tying illusions to a gemstone so that it would be self-sustaining.
RE: The source of Listener Rhythms.
We know (now) that the Parsh are the original inhabitants of Roshar. This would mean they pre-date the Shards moving in. We also have one of the Letters telling us that Hoid is walking a world that bears the design of Adonalsium. I would propose that the Rhythms are part of the original, Adonalsium, design for the world.
Edit: I have reconsidered the Parsh pre-dating the Shards. I have no solid evidence of that. However, the Parsh themselves (in Eshonai POVs in WoR) view tuning to the Rhytms as being in tune with Roshar itself. Therefor, while the Parsh may not (but I think they are) be part of the Adonalsium-ordered Roshar, they have developed a method to tune into the Rhythms of the planet, which would logically indicate that the Rhythms would be part of the world as designed by Adonalsium.
So the rhythms are definitely cosmere wide and are not limited to the listeners. Two WoB on it are shown below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e7414
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3662
I don’t know why but every time Nail comes up I get the image in my head of the Sheriff of Nottingham from the Disney animated Robin Hood.
Love Adolin’s reactions in this chapter. He says what we all think about Amaram. I was disappointed in Shallan’s response to the news of Kaladin killing her brother. I hope we face this more later, since she basically just put it away in a dark corner. I think the Veil and Radiant parts of her will get over it more quickly than the real Shallan will.
The meat here seems to be in Dalinar’s chapter. I didn’t realize how bad he had gotten on my first read, but it really hit me this time. I think it’s the worst we see him except for the second trip to Rathalas. The way Adolin turned out to be so good a leader of men can’t be just from Evi’s side of the family; he observed Dalinar for a lot of years and didn’t turn into a monster. B
I was personally pleased Helaran’s death did turn out to be a “big deal”. Kaladin did nothing wrong: he killed an enemy soldier attacking his men in the course of a battle. Being mad at him or hanging it upon his head would have been ridiculous: you can’t blame soldiers for killing opposing foes during battles. If Shallan has someone to blame for Helaran’s death, then it ought to be the one who send him there in the first place, not the poor soldier who had to kill him to protect his own life.
I would also state Shallan later reflects on Kaladin having killed Helaran and decides she can’t really hold it against him. So done deal for me, I don’t think this will come back into the narrative.
I do not believe Shallan really has a “crush” on Kaladin nor do I believe Veil is a part of Shallan. Veil is a fabrication and if Shallan is curious about Kaladin, she later realizes her curiosity has nothing to do with romantic feelings. I consider this arc of the narrative to be done with too.
On the matter of Dalinar: he was downright awful. In this chapter, he shows very little redeeming qualities and his behavior makes me wonder how come soldiers think of him so highly: he killed his own men! He killed his own men and he fails to be properly traumatized by his own actions.
This chapter showed how Amaram’s actions negatively impacted Adolin’s opinion of the man. He also goes as far as saying he used to look up to him, thinking him to be a “true soldier”, but now his opinion has shrinked down to nothing. Because of Amaram’s behavior with Kaladin. How would Adolin react had he actually seen or heard of his father slaughtering his own men in a frenzy? Or if he ever learns about the Rift? Dalinar later reflects on how hypocrite he had been to have wanted to trial Amaram for what he did to earn his Shardblade given what he did for lesser reasons.
So… Adolin’s blind admiration of Dalinar, a Red Herring or not? So many of those internal inter-character arcs turned out being Red Herring, so will this one join their ranks?
The concept of “true soldier” also comes back in Part 4. I thought for someone who said, back in WoK/WoR, he never wanted to be a soldier, Adolin spends a lot of time thinking of what it means to be a “true soldier”. Each time, he thinks he is not quite “it”. This retcon of Adolin changing from never wanting to go into soldering towards him having been a child soldier who idolizes soldiers really did not work so well with me. It makes OB’s narrative clash with WoK/WoR in an uninteresting manner. I don’t understand why Brandon did this. It doesn’t make for a good continuity with the existing narrative.
On Evi: I need to note here the original flashback chapter, which was released in Unfettered II had Dalinar downright say he had no positive feelings towards Evi. This was removed.
On Pacing or Parts or whatever: It made me smile to hear Lyn say she felt Part 1 was slow going due to the quasi-absence of Bridge 4 and Kaladin because this is exactly how I feel about Part 2 and Part 3 due to the quasi-absence of… well Adolin… Upon re-read, I find Part 1 reads much better than during the serialization. So if I ignore the fact I still do not believe Brandon handled the cliff-hanger left by Adolin murdering Sadeas in a satisfying manner, Part 1 reads nicely. Part 2 is interesting, but honestly nothing really happens during Part 2. Insights on Bridge 4 were fun to read, but not much actually happens during those chapters and, well Part 2 is very long. And it is followed with Part 3 where the pacing is very slow up until the end. Hence, about one half of the book has… not a lot happening. I kind of understand why Brandon wrote the book this way as it looks good, on a planning board, but the end product does have pacing issues.
Can we consider what Cultivation does to Dalinar magical therapy? Emphasis on Magic because there is NO real world therapy/treatment for sociopathy.
I have thought it really odd that Evi and Toh lent the Shardplate to Kholins before marriage and then kept putting the ceremony off. Did they really believe that they could still get it back at that point, that they had anything left to negotiate with?!
Why is Kalak particularly revered in some areas and in Cultivation-influenced West, of all places? Why aren’t any of the female Heralds as prominent as Jezrien/Ishar/Kalak(?!). Also, Iriali belief in the One didn’t stop them from having military and political ambitions, it seems. I really hope that we’ll learn where they have come from sooner rather than later and what the previous “Lands” were, as they are almost certainly not Ashynites. But ye, ironically enough, their faith provides a truer picture of Cosmere than Vorinism et al.
Kalanor was interesting in that he was, seemingly, a mirror to old Dalinar, somebody who had also achieved his position through ruthless conquest and military prowess, but eventually mellowed and became an “elder statesman”. His words to Dalinar are so very similar to what Dalinar says in WoK, while Dalinar’s answer is so very like various utterances of Sadeas in WoK and WoR. Kalanor even had a Ryshadium – and I am really curious if being chosen by one says something about somebody’s personality. Because I have been side-eyeing Highprince Hatham, who also has one, and expecting things from him since WoK, but he disappointed me so far.
Also, “if Kalanor dies, his line goes with him” (paraphrased) – what exactly does this mean? All heirs will be murdered? He was an old man – shouldn’t his younger male relatives have been on the battlefield, even wearing his shards, maybe? Are women and girls included in this “line” – given that they traditionally couldn’t inherit or hold lands? Did Sanderson skip over something much darker still that happened during the wars than what we are shown on-screen? Is Vamah, who became the Highprince here the same Vamah who is still in that position in the series or his father? I mean, Dalinar is what, 25 in this chapter? And I always thought that he was one of the oldest Highpinces in WoK.
Also, why were there so few shards in this battle? IIRC, Alethkar has 20 or even 30 sets, this is the deciding battle of the war of unification, surely the best weapons should have been in play? But no, somehow Kholins only have their 2 complete sets and 2 plates of Sadeas and Evi. And Kalanor’s opposing faction apparently only had 2 complete sets (including his) and a shardblade?! This doesn’t compute, IMHO.
Even a blind squirrel can find a nut. I predicted that Shallan will not turn on Kaladin when she learns he killed Helaran. I said Shallan will come to realize that Kaladin was defending those who could not and that Kaladin was not at fault. Yeah for me. (to paraphrase Shallan herself).
How did Amaram go about contacting Odium in the first place. What happened to the rest of the Sons of Honor? Will they also defect to Odium? It seems unlikely that an organization dedicated to the return to the glory of the Vorin Church would support a race of people who would destroy that Church and kill all humans.
Ross & Lyndsey: I think Lyndsey is half right. She is correct in that the shamespren is for how Dalinar had thoughts about killing Gavilar. Just as importantly, however, I think the shamespren is because he still loves Navani.
“Shouldn’t the why of what a man was doing be important to him?” This quote by Shallan is interesting knowing what she does in Kholinar. Shallan (in her Veil persona) truly thought she was helping the urchin and the woman with the kids by giving them the food. She saw that as a way to get her needed invitation to get into the palace while doing what she thought was something good. Had Shallan known that she was in effect sentencing the urchin to death, she would have altered her tactics. IMO, Shallan believes that the why is as important as the act itself.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Question for the beta readers. Does Brandon consider the version of the 4 chapters released in Unfettered II as canon?
If the chapters in Unfettered II are not viewed as canon, I think we as commentators should likewise not treat them as canon. To each there own, I guess.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@@@@@ 5 – No, in that instance Shallan didn’t tie an illusion to Pattern, although she had the ability to at that point (she did it a few times when trying to impress the Ghostbloods). She had to hide nearby to create those illusions and remarked that she would have preferred to attach them to Pattern but couldn’t because he was in blade form being wielded by Kaladin.
@6 Ah first (1) thanks for the shots fired at the wheel of time – as that was my first thought too. Thought I forget didn’t we get a breaking of the cycle by the final end of the final book – or is that a wishful made up memory on my part? (2) Also thank you for the correction between killed in battle and murder though this is a distinction that many here – including our rereaders miss/don’t believe in (see Dalinar discussions). Is an important distinction though – much like the one between legal and illegal migrant.
@12 most of this (ret cons of Alastair, lack of impact of killing of Sadeas) have been discussed to death but I will say I think you are wrong about Veil. Veil as presented in the book is a part of Shallan – she is in fact one of Shallan’s Persona’s – , to use a physiological metaphor refferenced more fully in a popular game series. One of the important and intended themes of this book is the importance of accepting these persona’s as part of yourself. The masks we put on come in part from ourselves.
@18 Having just finished the Wheel of Time, I got the impression the cycle was not “broken”. The “failure” at the end of the age of legends was fixed, but it sounded like the cycle would continue forever. Eventually a new bore will be made and the Dragon will be called on again.
Regarding: “It’s entirely possible that this right here is that Ym’s story miiiight just be a Reader’s Digest condensed version of the entire Adonalsium storyline. Long ago, all was One, but the One had to split itself into many in order to gain experience.”
That’s a really cool idea. I hadn’t considered that the One was about Adonalsium. I had related the world religions to the shards – Vorinism to Honor, the Passions to Odium, and so I had assumed that the One was for Cultivation. But… since this is a world crafted by Adonalsium, perhaps the One is based on it. Which makes me wonder which religion is for Cultivation if that’s the case… I suppose I could have mislabeled the Passions, but I don’t think so. I feel like the Pure Lake is related to the One, but is it? Anyone help me out there? The Horneaters religion? I know they let Vorin missionaries in, but I don’t think they are Vorin per se.
One can believe nessecary evils are necessary without denying they are evil. Isn’t that what killing in wartime, even the most unavoidable of wars against the most evil of fo foes is. I think that that’s what Kaladin is struggling to understand. And I suspect it is true for many radiants as they progress through their oaths. Especially the fourth and fifth oaths. That’s because life is in many ways a contradiction.
Also something I noticed about Bondsmiths and their oaths in many ways their oaths seem to be the oaths for ALL off the Knights Radiant rolled into one.
I could be wrong given how little we’ve seen of all the orders but the Uniting instead if dividing, as well as acknowledging where they’ve failed seem to be things that ALL KNIGHTS RADIANTS DO maybe it’s just that with bond smiths they do it to a LARGER extent. Maybe while being broken isn’t a necessity with other Knights (it’s been speculated that it helps but what is needed is being “open” as in open to change) it not only IS a necessity with BONDSMITHS, but you have to be BROKEN MORE than anyone else
@14: My thoughts are the weeding negotiations took time because Toh refused to transfer the ownership of the Plate to the Kholins. I suspect Dalinar never own this Plate: it is being referenced too often as Adolin’s Plate, even when he was a little boy. I also suspect who owns this Plate is important, somehow, but I could be wrong. Let’s call it a gut feeling.
With my re-read, I developed a new found obsession over General’s Kahl’s family. Melaran Kahl, his youngest son is a balding man in his early thirties: he has two older brother and there is a sister, somewhere who was young enough to have dated Adolin. Dalinar is definitely not the oldest.
I’ll admit I didn’t keep track of all the Shards, but they are supposed to be very hard to win. I think we were spoiled by Adolin winning so many so quickly and so easily back in WoR: this must have been a once in a people’s history event. I also took note Maya changed hand within this chapter: she was won by Tanalan, the man teenage Adolin will later duel with to earn her.
@16: I will echo Andrew’s question. I am curious to know too.
@18: A lot of topics have been discussed to death, especially Shallan/Veil and young Dalinar, but this does not stop anyone from voicing out their thoughts when they feel they are relevant to this week’s chapter. As far as I am concerned, the discussion will be over when it reaches conclusions which satisfies all readers or when no more readers are interested in having them. Hence, I don’t think it is fair my post is just “beating on dead horses”… They may be dead to you, but they remain very alive to me.
I disagree about Veil being a part of Shallan. The textual referenced how Shallan creates those personas, they did not emerge from her. She made them up to fill a need. Veil, Radiant, the noblewoman, every persona she uses are either creation or real-life people. Brandon has also stated on a few occasions Veil/Radiant are the product of magic and not Shallan’s inner psyche.
I thus disagree Shallan needs to accept Veil as a part of herself: this is exactly what her problem was all along. She kept on pretending Veil was her or she was Veil or could be Veil. She stopped treating Veil for what she was: a convenient disguise. I am firm in my beliefs she needs to ditch Veil, discard her entirely, not adsorb her. To have her be what she actually is: a tool and nothing more, but to do this, she may need to drop her all together as her emotional attachment to Veil is too strong, IMHO.
@19
The Bore will be reopened when the end of the 2nd Age comes again. Considering that there will be 5 Ages between, it will be a long ass time before stuff happens again. However the Dragon will be reborn many many more times along with all the rest of the Heroes of the Horn.
Now to the chapters…
What Dalinar does here and Amaram’s treatment of Kaladin are completely different even though the results were similar. Dalinar’s issue happens in the heat of battle, where adrenaline and bloodlust tend to blot out rationality. This is enhanced by a magical foreign influence that no current living person truly understands (not even King T at this point in the story). Regrettable? Certainly. And this doesn’t excuse Dalinar at all. What he does here is horrible but it wasn’t intentional. Friendly fire in a manner of speaking. What Amaram does is straight up betrayal. His actions were intentional, deliberate, and conscious. He feeds soldiers to the meat grinder that won him the blessed battle. Although it’s true that soldiers were killed by their commanding officer in both cases, the first is somewhat forgivable, the second is not.
@11 Dalinar in this case leads from the front so that he can get to the slaughter faster but outside observers could interpret it as a desire to protect his men who are more vulnerable. I believe Adolin interpreted it as such when he learned battlefield tactics from his father, and it just may have been Dalinar’s intent by the time he taught Adolin. However, the results are the same in either case.
Gepeto, Veil may be modeled after Tyn but those are still Shallan’s personality traits in there. Veil wouldn’t stick nearly as well if it was all fabrication. I don’t believe that Shallan could make an enduring persona if that persona had nothing of her in it. For instance, if she needed a persona that equated to a female version of Sadeas I’m sure she could make it happen for a bit. But it would not last past the need at the moment. Veil is so hard for Shallan to throw off because parts of her core are infused within the persona. Same with Brightness Radient. I’m sure we’ll have to agree to disagree about it though.
@14 I got the same impression about Kalanor and the Elder Statesman vibe. I believe it’s stated that all his heirs were slain during the battle and that he was the last one standing when he faced Dalinar. I could be wrong though.
@21 Gepeto
I think what Isilel was saying (correct me if I am wrong), is that by this point in the narrative, there is only one hold out to the unity that is Gavilar. Given that there are so many shards, and that the Gavilar led army conquered all the others, then theoretically they should have been able to bring those shards to bear to help conquer the remaining stragglers. Personally I think it was because they did not trust the conquered yet enough to let them use their shards in battle, but that is just conjecture on my part.
Also I think what Isilel was saying (again correct me if I am wrong), was that Gavilar and co were actively using Evi’s plate prior to finalizing the marriage. If Gavilar and Dalinar are such bloodthirsty and moralless war hawks, then what is to stop them from taking the plate they now hold, and kicking Evi to the curb?
My response regarding Shallan is the same I posted in the other thread. I have pasted it below
I never said Veil was “real”. Just that aspects of Veil are parts of Shallan, which does show in the two illusions Wit creates and uses to help Shallan. Also what Wit actually said was
She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.”
Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here” Wit said “And its the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it“
I guess where I am getting confused by what you are saying is I feel one second you say Veil isn’t real, the next you say she has aspects of Shallan, and then another you say she has absolutely no connection to Shallan. All I am saying is Veil is a mask that Shallan wears that does have aspects and traits of Shallan in it. Same with Radiant. Shallan drinks as we see in Words of Radiance. Shallan is resourceful and pushes against her upbringing. Those are traits we see in Veil. Shallan can be confident, and assume command. Those are traits we see in Radiant. Shallan just hates herself and feels she does not have these traits because in her mind if she had, then she wouldn’t have lost her family the way she did. “Shallan” is the cause of all the tragedy in her family because she was “weak” in her mind. Radiant and Veil are strong in all the ways she doesn’t think she is. Wit is trying to tell her she is strong in all those ways. That she has to learn not to blame herself for the hurt. To as he said “Accept the pain, but don’t accept that you deserve it”.
At least that is my reading of the character. Everyone is perfectly entitled to either dislike or like Veil as it suits them of course.
@23 Scath Slow Clap
Scath @23. I wish I was as eloquent as you re your views on Shallan, Veil and Brightness Radiant. I agree with your position.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
Aka the musespren
(Sent via smart phone)
It is bothering me a little the comparison between Young!Dalinar and Moash just because they are both not such good people. In general I think people judge young!Dalinar very harshly and make some things he did seem worse than they were, without acknowledging anything good about him.
I will be the first to say that young!Dalinar is uncaring and addicted to mindlessly killing people by the thousands. He caused so much death to people who had no chance to defend themselves, and even killed men under his own command just because he wasn’t paying attention. He referred to himslef as a beast to be unleashed and sent out to attack hordes of enemies. Nothing about that is good or respectable, in fact, it is despicable. I think his murder of Kalanor is in fact not as terrible as you both seem to, and definitely not as bad as anything Moash did. It was killing an important enemy during a battle. While not necessarily the “right” thing to do it would probably have been perceived as weak by those around him if he had let Kalanor live. Most importantly, when he had the opportunity to betray his brother he held himself back. For the person he was, living for his addiction and self-gratification, this was a HUGE step on the right path. It was setting a boundary and expressing self control.
Moash was a person with a very hard life and a personal vendetta that drove him. Despite seeming to care for his friends he DID betray them and ultimately joined the enemy. His killing Elhokar was so much more than murdering a random enemy on the battlefield who was begging for mercy. It was putting the final nail in the coffin, the point of no return. He looked Kaladin in the eyes, a man he claimed to respect, and then killed the person who they had argued about, who Kaladin had tried so desperately to protect, who we knew was trying to become a better man. And then he had the audacity to give Kaladin the bridge four salute, mocking what had been such a close bond.
The act of killing a defenseless man is never ok, even on a battlefield, but to say that what Dalinar and Moash did is comparable is to completely ignore the context of why they were doing it, what led them to that point, and where they went afterwards. Dalinar was able to take control of his life and become a new person, but it seems to me that Moash has lost any chance he had of returning to anyones good graces.
On a seperate note I am very intersted in what people think about the Iriali and the One. I have heard people say the One is Adonalsium and that it is a specific shard that splintered itself. Whatever it is, it is definately important and may shed some light on some of the many mysteries still remaining about the cosmere.
These are really meaty chapters; I think we will have a lot of discussion on them. Great re-read, Lyn & Ross!
Young!Dalinar makes me want to vomit (my stomach is not as strong as Kadash’s; I can’t hold out for the Rift). That said, I agree with both alahar (@26) and several of the points mentioned in the re-read. I think some of the similarities between Moash and Dalinar are deliberate, but the reactions to their hardships are very different. That, to me, is the key. They each take the all important next step, but Moash takes his down the path that leads to murdering Heralds and gleefully killing men in front of their toddlers during battle and joking about it, while Dalinar chooses not to kill an innocent boy (seems crazy to us, but in their society that was big) for a Shardblade, chooses not to kill his brother, and eventually after his worst actions chooses a life of drunkenness that ultimately leads to his big pruning. Thus, they are both despicable in their youth, but Dalinar aspires to something more and puts in the work to become something more. Moash is just the worst. On a related note, I personally don’t read Dalinar here as not caring for his Elites. I see his inability to say he killed them as a reflection of his shame and grief. Perhaps this is just wish fulfillment, but we know that seed of the man he has become is in him even during this scene of horror.
I also find religion in the SA to be very intriguing. Comparing the Alethi take on Vorinism where mass butchery of soldiers is a boon for your soul in judgement to the Iriali religion makes you think that it is a miracle Dalinar and Evi managed to function together at all. It also gives some insight into how Evi was able to love Dalinar so. I have to echo Dalinar that it does seem that heresy is the only thing that will upset the ardents since Kadash even says the marriage to Navani would not have upset them.
Regarding Nergaoul’s rhythms – we know he is of Odium and the Listeners have rhythms, but I take it more as meaning he is native Rosharan. As mentioned in the rereads, the rhythms are part of Roshar. I subscribe to Lyn’s theory that Odium corrupted or co-opted the rhythms, but I also really like Ross’s theory that Cultivation is responsible for some rhythms. Perhaps she also co-opted some, just the ones we think are good ones.
Did anyone else think the natural tower that Dalinar and Kalanor fought on was a little suspicious? I didn’t notice it on my first read, but the line “in the mysterious way of the storms” made me wonder if the monsters we have seen striding the storms were involved. Doesn’t Dalinar see them hurling boulders in an earlier flashback? He mentions boulders littering the ground near this formation.
I find it telling that Dalinar rejects Evi’s intimacy but revels in intimacy with the Thrill. It shows just how deep in the throes of his addiction he was at this time. Also, are the passionspren significant here? We know that Odium fancies himself to be Passion, and I believe this is just a case of re-branding, but it seems that the Thrill is inducing extreme passion in Dalinar. Is there perhaps something to this? Is Odium corrupting extreme passion to bend it towards hate? That seems to be almost exactly what the Thrill does.
I thought it was sweet how Navani gave Dalinar a prayer and equally sweet that he doesn’t realize it was an act of love on her part. How different would this story be if Navani had chosen Dalinar from the beginning? I also find Dalinar’s insistence that he is not an idiot to be interesting since in “present day” he often speaks negatively of his intelligence.
I still wish we knew more of why Gavilar was seeking kingship. He seems like a jerk in this chapter, attacking towns to lure out their highprince. I don’t think he would have gotten along with Kaladin. It seems like a small thing, but Dalinar’s cold dismissal of the horse whose back he broke also made me sad.
One final question – is the custom of killing for Shards not as ingrained as we are led to believe from our viewpoint characters? We know Dalinar thought he had to kill the boy, but Dalinar here races down to kill the soldiers who are trying to take the plate and blade that are rightfully his according to custom. Was this perhaps a custom followed more strongly in the Kholin princedom?
Wow, this got long. Two final notes on Shallan’s chapters – we have talked a lot about how Shallan tends to be inactive in OB, but this chapter made me reassess that. Certainly she flees to her other personas, but she is still getting things done. Here, she does abandon Dalinar, but that is because she is focused on the hunt for Re-Shephir. Even her inattention in the meeting is caused by her drawing the victims and solidifying the connections between the violence. I think it is interesting that she is neglecting her duties to Dalinar to perform duties for Mraize, but the duties she performs for Mraize are ones that Dalinar unwittingly needed her to perform.
I also can’t imagine the terror of cities going dark. There is not a ton of focus on it in the book since most of the major players are together, but thinking of it happening in our world makes me shiver.
On a somewhat whimsical note, does the drawing featured in this installment of the re-read look like an interpretation of the stick possessed by Odium to anyone else or is it just me?
I’m starting to have a different view of the flashbacks in this book: What we are seeing is a battle between Odium and Honor (and maybe Cultivation) for the soul of Dalinar, with the prize being who will have him as their champion.
Dalinar has always had a very strong sense of honor. This is what lets him subsume himself to Gavilar’s desires (from not marrying Navani to working for the unification of Alethkar). It is also what makes him a bondsmith. This aspect of his personality is put into direct conflict with his embracing of the Thrill, especially in this flashback (where he forces himself to not kill Gavilar).
Honor vs. Odium (with Cultivation later providing a needed reset that allows Honor time to recover its(his) hold.
And yes, I know Honor is dead, but his power still infuses the world and many of his spren are still around to influence how the world goes forward.
@24 BenW and 25 AndrewHB
Thank you for the compliments :)
@27 Evelina
Regarding the soldiers grabbing the plate and blade, I believe that is because they were still at war and they were trying to prevent the enemy (Dalinar) from taking one of their greatest weapons. If they could get it off, and get away quick enough, they could always use it to fight back.
*sigh* another week of discussion I’m going to miss due to my workload. :-( Posting so that I can binge read later. :-)
The “One” of the Iri religion, breaking itself apart to experience things, reminds me pretty exactly of the Minbari religion from the old TV show Babylon 5. Check out just the final 20 seconds of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap0-uO8h2OU
@23: I think we are saying the same thing using different words and sentences. Allow me to try to re-phrase my thoughts in, perhaps, a clearer way.
What I disagree with:
Veil is the real Shallan. Veil is Shallan’s strongest personality, the one she suppressed and she needs to become “more Veil” to heal. What Veil thinks or feels is important and relevant to Shallan. Veil isn’t a fabrication. Veil is “real” in the sense her inner thoughts carry any level of significance to what Shallan really thinks. Veil is one third of Shallan.
What I agree with:
Veil is a persona Shallan created to infiltrate the Ghostbloods. Shallan made Veil to resemble Tyn, her only example of a con woman. As all creators, Shallan didn’t start from scratch. If you are trying to built a new car, you won’t start by re-inventing the wheel: you will use what you already possess and extrapolate from there. Brandon once commented how many of his characters had some of him in them while not really being him.
In my posts, I have often referenced to actresses using their personal experience and their own self to better craft the role they are asked to play. They essentially become someone and if this someone does show some similarity with them, it still isn’t them. Hence, Veil didn’t burgeoned out of thin air. She does share some traits with Shallan, such as boldness and being a risk taker, but they are amplified to the tenth fold within Veil just as Radiant’s sense of responsibility is abnormally high to the point where she is cold-heartened and dispassionate. I agree those two extremes are characteristics Shallan does possess, though in much lesser doses and I do agree she views those as the “desirable characteristics to have” unlike Shallan’s real strong traits such as creativity and artistry.
I agree with all of this, but I do not agree Veil is the real Shallan or what she is a “repressed side” of Shallan. If Shallan used some of her to make up Veil, Veil later becomes someone completely different from Shallan, someone sharing only dim characteristics with Shallan.
The quote you have listed amplifies my thoughts: Veil is a fabrication. Shallan admits Veil is a lie, someone she made up. Yes, it is an inviting lie, yes this lie started up with Shallan mixing up Tyn with some of her own traits, but the end result is NOT Shallan.
What I also disagree with:
Shallan needs to re-absorbs Veil to heal. She needs to be both Shallan, Veil and Radiant to be herself. I believe Shallan is Shallan and her personas are extrapolations on ideas which Shallan thought were seducing. She does not need to absorb them, she needs to get rid of them. She needs to accept she does not need them, she can be all she wants to be without lying and turning into someone else.
I hope this makes my thoughts clearer. Please feel free to ask more questions if this isn’t clear enough. Those aren’t thoughts I feel are easy to write down in a cohesive manner.
On Gavilar and Evi’s Plate: The narrative tells us Evi’s Plate has been used by chosen individuals even prior to her marriage to Dalinar. I however think the fact she still retained ownership over the Plate is somewhat important. Hence, as the owner of her Plate, she allowed someone else to wear it to war, as agreed with Gavilar, but she still retained her ownership rights over it. Given how the narrative unfolded, my thoughts are the Kholins (baring Adolin) never owned this Plate. They could use it, but only because Evi was allowing them to do it.
I don’t know where were the 20-30 Shards in Alethkar. Many were probably hold by lesser highlords families and, as such, would be pledge to fight with their Highprinces. Within this chapter, they won two sets of Shard and one Shardblade (Maya) to their cause. I always assumed there were other Shardbearers within Gavilar’s army, but not all must have been employed dung one specific battle.
@26: I don’t think of Moash in a negative way. Moash, I feel, was given a bad lot in life and for all of his struggles, he did not get the opportunity to have a spren choose him and help him become a better person. All of the choices he made turned out being wrong and all of the choices he made were made because he genuinely believe they were the best ones. He however refused to own responsibility for his deeds and when he tries to think along those lines, instead of gaining a spren, he gained Odium whispering in his ear.
I felt Moash was a tragic character: he never had the chance to change his views, Perhaps he had it, once, but it wasn’t obvious enough nor comprehensive enough for him to take it.
I finished up reading Part 3 feeling sorry for Moash: nothing good will come out of him, but he never was evil nor mean.
Moderators: I couldn’t post yesterday evening… It just wouldn’t work. I do not know why.
@@@@@ Gepeto
When you said Shallan needs to banish Veil (and I assume by extension Brightness Radient), do you feel that the traits they embody are unimportant?
The original reason for Shallan creating her imaginary friends is because they fulfilled a specific purpose. Veil, she used to infiltrate the Ghostbloods and Brightness was for dealing with her Radient responsibilities. Her prior coping mechanism, i.e. tossing memory blocks at anything she found to be unpleasant or hard to deal with, was no longer sufficient for her evolving role in the world. Slipping up with the Ghostbloods would get her killed; slipping up in her Radient role would make her untrustworthy to her allies, thus marginalizing her effectiveness. Her personas therefore emphasize the traits she possesses that would allow her to survive in different environments.
So, you want Veil to go away. Do you want the personality traits Shallan used to make up Veil to disappear as well? Those are the traits that allowed her to match up with Mraize without blinking. Brightness is a less grating personality, but to get rid of Veil then Brightness must go too; they are both a symptom of Shallan’s current coping mechanism. The traits that make up Brightness, professional and level-headed and practical, are they less important than Shallan’s artistry and creativity? What I’m getting at is that Shallan possesses all these traits; everything Veil is, everything Brightness is, both of these people are Shallan. To get rid of them is to deny that the traits represented by Veil and Brightness have any value. However, assimilation of the personas would mean that Shallan accepts that those traits are ones she actually does possess. Shallan is not just artsy and creative, she is also bold and decisive like Veil. She’s not just intelligent, she’s strong in the ways Brightness Radient is strong. Only when she can accept that she is Veil and Brightness, not just poorly imitating Tyn and Jasnah, can she outgrow her need for them.
I believe Shallan is on the right trajectory and that her need to shunt parts of her personality into imaginary people will eventually flag. You will get your wish; she will discard her personas. But she must learn the lessons they have to teach her first, else she’ll die without ever reaching her full potential.
@33 Gepeto
what you said
What I disagree with:
Veil is the real Shallan. Veil is Shallan’s strongest personality, the one she suppressed and she needs to become “more Veil” to heal. What Veil thinks or feels is important and relevant to Shallan. Veil isn’t a fabrication. Veil is “real” in the sense her inner thoughts carry any level of significance to what Shallan really thinks. Veil is one third of Shallan.
I feel like you are having an argument here that you had with someone else elsewhere. I nor do I believe anyone else here said Veil was the real Shallan, so I am unsure why you keep bringing that point up? If it is because Lyn mentioned Shallan’s crush on Kaladin, Shallan exhibited that crush prior to subsuming into Veil, and also when she was not actively “playing the part” of Veil, so that crush is coming from Shallan. Now feel free to feel Adolin is her one true love and all that as you wish, just like others feel it is Kaladin and etc etc. I am not here to discuss the love triangle so I will not continue that line of discussion. All I am discussing here is the function that Veil serves. I guess we just disagree how to read the passage that I posted because Wit says all he sees is Shallan. The illusions he created has clothing of Veil, Shallan’s face, and Radiant’s expression. So that reads to me that Veil and Radiant aren’t just some characters in a play. They are aspects of Shallan. One may be one you find particular distasteful, but in my opinion it does not change the function.
@34 EvilMonkey
I agree, well said
As to the plate, I think the point Isilel was making (again I do not want to speak for him or her as I do not want to misrepresent them, but this was my own understanding), was that Isilel feels Alethi, Gavilar, and Dalinar are rather bloodthirsty and warlike. So it isn’t very prudent of Toh and Evi to hand over the one bargaining chip they have to the Alethi before the contract for marriage is signed. There is nothing stopping that the next time Toh tries to slip in a new addendum into the contract, that Gavilar just flat out says “no, I don’t like those terms. I think they should favor me. I have your plate, what do I need you for anymore?”
Again, I think you misunderstand and hopefully I can explain better. So Gavilar and Dalinar are Kholins right? And there are 9 other highprinces. This chapter is the last hold out for unification. That means 8 other highprinces have been killed, conquered or swore allegiance to the Kholins. Each of those highprinces should have shards of their own, whether directly owned by them, or as you said, have vassals that obey them. So since those 8 now swear allegiance to the Kholins, then why aren’t their shards being used in the last battle? Best I got is either they had to secure what they grabbed so the left them, or they didn’t fully trust the owners yet (as a Shardbearer going rogue at the right time could completely turn the tide of battle), or maybe they just didn’t feel they needed to bring so many to bear. But all those reasons are just guesses on my part.
@34: I think I am failing at writing down my thoughts in a comprehensive manner. What I said is while Shallan may have used traits she does possessed to make up Veil, the end product no longer is Shallan. Shallan doesn’t need Veil to have those amplified traits just as she doesn’t need Radiant to have hers. She needs neither of them. She made them up to fill up needs, but she ended up preferring them up to her real-self who she hates.
In other words, Shallan does not need Veil nor Radiant. Destroying those personas wouldn’t destroy the traits she may have in common with them. Shallan is Shallan. She does not need Veil to be bold, she can be bold while being Shallan as she have been in the past. She can be responsible while being herself, she does not need to become Radiant to do so. However as long as she is going to rely on Veil/Radiant to take up the tasks she thinks Shallan is unable to accomplish, she will, IMHO sink.
Hence, removing Veil/Radiant does not remove anything out of Shallan. It removes nefarious disguises which are harming Shallan’s character progression by giving her an easy mean to avoid dealing with reality, They stall her. they do not help her and as long as she does not admit she does not need them, as long as she keeps on treating them as “real people” and not disguised, she will not progress, still IMHO.
@35: Fair point. Some of the points I have brought forward were taken out of other conversations and not from anything anyone here said. I guess I just wanted make my thoughts be as clear as possible since there was some confusion on what I think. Apologies if I seem to be struggle to make them clear.
And yeah some of those thoughts come from Lyn saying Shallan has a “crush” on Kaladin which I feel is a bit of an exaggeration given the narrative we read. Shallan never actively tries to be near Kaladin nor is she trying to find excuses to talk to him: she is not behaving like a girl having a crush. Yes, she is curious, yes she asks herself questions, but crush’ I thought this was pushing it a tad too far, IMHO. A crush… well, it is much more strong than what we saw. So I’d call it an interest which fades fairly quickly, but is amplified by Veil because, of course, Veil would prefer Kaladin over Adolin. It is al pretty messy, but I do not believe Shallan loves Kaladin nor that she is lying to herself when she chooses Adolin. I guess I wanted to make these thoughts clear.
On the Wit quote, I interpret it as there is only one person: Shallan. It doesn’t matter which disguise she is wearing, she still is Shallan. Veil/Radiant are just… disguises, not part of her. If I dress as superman and act like superman, I am still me, but I am behaving like someone else. This is exactly what I think Shallan is doing: she is becoming someone else, but those someone never were her.
I do not find the traits Shallan has used to create Veil distasteful: I find the gross exaggeration and the blatant lie which is Veil distasteful. Her entire prancing in Kholinar made the hair on my arms crawl because she is so manipulative, so false, so obnoxious, I cannot not hate her. But her is not Shallan. When Shallan becomes Veil. she no longer is herself, not entirely. She is… a caricature of one side of herself, one she does not need.
Regarding Dalinar and respect from soldiers:
It is common for success to breed respect, admiration, and even enthusiastic participation on the part of followers. For instance, a ship’s captain who is aggressive and often loses crew in engagements that no reasonable commander would even allow themselves to be drawn into but who also never loses and manages to capture enemy ships of much greater power (and prize value) will generally be able to replenish his losses easily with volunteers, to the point where he can turn away crewmen who are not at the top of their professions. His crew will value his commitment to victory and his history of success (and the stories of retired crewmen who got rich under his command) enough that they will be willing to assume the greater risks incumbent in his tactics.
Dalinar wins battles. His men get to loot, and his elites get preferential treatment. Men will volunteer to join his army in expectation of more victories and more loot, and will eagerly accept invitations to join his elites even if a few wind up dead from “friendly fire” in the chaos of battle. The odds are low that a given casualty will be you, and in the mean time the perks will be very good.
In contrast, Amaram wins battles too. However, he doesn’t win battles that nobody else would even try to fight, and he isn’t famous for the amount of loot that his soldiers can acquire (indeed, he probably has a bit of a reputation as a booty hog, especially for anyone who has spoken with veterans of the battle where he “won” his shardblade). His big thing is his very public front of being honorable and “good,” which aren’t exactly qualities that soldiers necessarily care about. Rather, they are political virtues designed to advance Amaram’s reputation among the ruling classes and further his political agenda. Some few men might volunteer for service with a commander known as honorable, but far more will go for one known as a conqueror and a “lucky” general who gets his men paid extremely well. Amaram certainly has to resort to conscripts to fill out his ranks, which I’m not sure Dalinar would have had to worry about after the first couple of battles at the start of his career.
I would also like to add that killing a fallen foe is a far cry from killing a prisoner (and certainly an order of magnitude less vile than killing your own men in secret after a battle). My understanding of the medieval custom is that you might beg mercy on the battlefield, and the church would certainly require that your foe grant it, but there was neither legal nor social requirement for mercy to be granted. Generally mercy gets you more money via ransom afterward, but if you have a feud with the other guy, if he is a particularly dangerous enemy and you want to deprive the other side of his services forever, or if you simply have no provision for taking or holding prisoners, then execution is probably the most pragmatic option. That isn’t to say that it is moral, simply that it is probably not unusual.
@37
Well said.
I never much minded Shallan doing her Veil shenanigans, even when they were foolish and reckless, until their unintended death toll was revealed. But I was revolted by flashback-Dalinar’s bloodlust and callousness — however realistic — from this chapter onward, and couldn’t really enjoy his modern-day self (not that I ever liked him much) despite how greatly he changed. Wanting to be someone else, shutting out traumatic memories, and doing harm while trying to do good are struggles/experiences I find very relatable. Addiction to violence (magic-enhanced, no less), alcoholism, loss of compassion, and the mindsets needed by soldiers and warlords simply aren’t relatable to me, nor is the experience of overcoming them.
Once more into the breach:
I don’t agree that Moash had a “legitimate reason” to do what he did because he didn’t even bother to try to find the person truly responsible for the death of his grandparents and direct his revenge at him. I could have understood that. Instead, he focussed on somebody only tangentially connected to the whole thing, just because he was easy to locate, I guess, and maybe sufficiently prominent for his ego. And to take his vengeance on this person, Moash turned on Kaladin, a friend, a man to whom he owed everything, and attempted to murder him. That’s not comparable with young Dalinar at all, even given allowances for Alethi culture.
Dalinar’s chapter plays with the concepts of “justice” in that Kalanor is paying for the sins of his bloody youth, even though he has seemingly grown beyond it and changed for the better – exactly the same thing almost happened to Dalinar during WoK and WoR and he is still paying in other ways. He is in the process of change in other ways in this chapter too – early on, he gloried in and flaunted his supposed intellectual short-comings, ostentatiously refusing to listen during the briefings, etc. Here he is more self-conscious about it and pays more attention to overall plans than during the previous battles. First glimpses of his potential as a general, rather than merely a champion.
Progression of Dalinar’s addiction to the Thrill is one of the many reasons why I don’t believe Odium’s assertions about being really Passion. The Thrill itself is not evil, as Dalinar discovers towards the end, but the way that love of challenge and competition enhanced by the Thrill in the earlier chapters mutates into pure blood-thirstiness here reflects Odium’s general MO of getting to people through strong emotions and then shepherding them towards numb brutishness, with brief intermittent flashes of strong negative emotions. Dalinar is so perfect for him because he is very passionate, but passion seems to be like an infection vector for Odium, rather then true nature of his Shard.
Oh, and speaking of Nergaoul, I have a crackpot theory that he is a corrupted piece of Dominion, subverted and then imported by Odium into Roshar system, just like the Ghostbloods plan to export Sja-Anat somewhere else in Cosmere.
Regarding Gavilar, Navani hinted in one of the previous volumes that he had been aware and somewhat afraid of Dalinar’s extreme passions, so he may not have been as completely oblivious in this scene as Dalinar thought. And yes, Gavilar was not particularly bloodthirsty, comparatively speaking, although very ruthless, and he became focussed on unification rather than just glory of conquest fairly early on. Which makes me wonder, of course, just when exactly the Stormfather became aware of the impending Desolation and started looking for potential Bondsmiths. This is a ret-con from WoK, BTW, where Gavilar allegedly only became less warlike and interested in diplomacy a few years before his death.
Ryshadium can’t be native to Roshar, since they are, well, enhanced horses rather than some kind of shell-beast. Their ancestors must have been normal horses brought over by one the human migrations, but they managed to adapt to their new home to the greater degree than all other imported animals. And yea, since they seem to have a spren-bond, they must be tapped into the rythms.
Stormlightchick @11:
Gloomy scottish ballads would make us believe that killing any number of your flame’s brothers wouldn’t stand in the way of romance (maybe they were jerks to their sister and saw her merely as family property?), but honestly, I think that death of Helaran should have been much more of an issue and wasn’t only due to Shallan’s mental suppression. It is going to come up and will need to be worked through in the future, along with other Davar family issues, IMHO. It doesn’t matter that it was on the battlefield, and therefore not murder.
Gepeto @12:
I am not sure that there is a real contradiction or retcon considering Adolin’s wishes about “becoming a soldier” in WoK and OB. IIRC, we only heard about it from Dalinar, whose feelings on the topic are very ambivalent even in the flashbacks – he simultaneously prized Adolin’s potential as a warrior and also didn’t want him to become a bloodstained man like himself. Yet, at the same time, a Highprince’s heir needs to be a competent military commander, if possible. Sure, if worse comes to worst, he can employ other commanders, like old Sebarial, does, but not only must he be able to pick good ones, but this isn’t as safe in Alethi context – and would it have been feasible in the past, without even the flawed Gavilar’s unification that blunted military conflicts between various princedoms? Young Sebarial in the current flashback was certainly expected to lead his troops himself, and all the other Highprinces still do. Once both Gavilar and Dalinar were gone, their sons would have been tested hard in every way, including the military one. It is true that Ehlokar’s position as the second of a new dynasty was very dangerous and unstable. So, it doesn’t strike me as realistic that Adolin could have ever gotten away with being merely a duelist. It is entirely possible that the events of Second Rathalas, even in sanitized version, desillusoned Adolin regarding war, too, whatever his views as a child.
Personally, I find it more jarring that Dalinar later reprimanded Adolin for being out of uniform, even though he himself didn’t start to rever and follow the codes until years later. This also leaves too little time for Adolin’s foppish phase and build-up of his relationship with his tailor. Concerning “blind admiration” – he only knew his father in his “general” phase when the Blackthorn presented a more civilized and thoughtful facade than during his barbarian youth, nor was he present on the actual battlefields or their aftermaths as a kid, as far as we know. And lets not forget the Alethi culture that glorifies war and warriors – nobody would have seen Dalinar’s ability to off lots of opponents in open battle as a negative. And by that time he learned to conceal his sheer enjoyment of the slaughter pretty well.
Evelina @27:
Frankly, the idea that you need to kill to rightfully own the shards makes no sense in the view of people habitually forfeiting the shards in duels which aren’t to the death, or even voluntarily relinquishing them as gifts or to “buy” something, like Dalinar did with the bridgemen. Tanalan Jr. was full of it even by Alethi traditions, he didn’t have a leg to stand on.
RogerPavelle @29:
Yes, there are glimpses of Dalinar’s sense of honor throughout. For instance, not only does he recruit capable enemies and keep his word to him from the start, but we later learn that he often performed such “stunts” in order to spare conquered places from the sackings. He has always been a “what you see is what you get” kind of person, a man of his word.
Even in this chapter, comparisons with Amaram are misplaced, because not only does Dalinar make sure that the men he accidentally killed in the heat of battle would get buried with honor, but he also orders that their families should be taken care of. He never, even during his worst phase, would have cold-bloodedly murdered the soldiers who had just saved him. Back when I had hopes that Amaram would prove to harbour some hidden depths and that he actually took his pretences to honor somewhat seriously, I expected that we’d eventually find out that he secretly gave some kind of recompense to the families of his betrayed rescuers, at least, but nope.
Scath @23 and @35
is completely right re: the meaning of my points concerning the shards. It was stupid of Toh and Evi to hand over the shardplate to Kholins to use and still drag their feet concerning the marriage, demanding more and more in return, because they risked getting kicked to the curb with Kholins keeping the plate. It didn’t matter who was formally supposed to own it – and for Rirans and the Iri it may still be the matter of some debate, physical possession is 9/10 of the law, as they say.
Ditto the general inconsistency with numbers and use of shards in Alethkar. They have at least 20 complete sets, maybe even 30, I don’t remember, so I’d have expected most of those being used during the decisive battle for the future of the country. It doesn’t make any sense to hold back.
Kalanor clearly didn’t think that his situation was completely hopeless, but with seemingly just 2 complete sets and a blade on his side that would have been a complete joke. Yet, the whole Kholin battle plan hinges on Kalanor himself taking the field if Dalinar presses hard enough, rather than some other shard-bearer under his command – of which Kalanor should have had a few if he thought that giving battle wasn’t complete insanity. He had 4 princedoms behind him, IIRC, surely they should have had a proportional amount of shards? I mean, we were told that there are strategies and tactics for non-shardbearers to counter and overwhelm a shardbearer, but we never saw them actually working. Only Parshendi came close, but they weren’t human and therefore both stronger and more self-sacrificial than humans tend to be.
Ditto Kholins – they seemingly fielded 3 complete sets and a plate from the shards that Alethkar is known to have, excluding Evi’s windfall Riran plate. I say 3, because Highprince Ruthar won shards for his son in this battle, in addition to Maya changing hands, so he must have already had his own set. Where are at least 14 more complete shard sets that Alethkar is supposed to have? Why weren’t most of them in use during this very important battle? It makes no sense.
But there is more. During Second Rathalas, when Dalinar was lured into an ambush by Tanalan Jr’s lie, he thought something along the lines of – “did Sadeas send _one of his shardbearers_ ?” Yet, in the series Sadeas has no other shardbearers, except for Amaram, whose stolen shards came from outside of the number officially known to be in Alethi hands. Which is particularly weird since, after all, there used to be a powerful Highprince Yemev, whose lands Aladar now holds, and who was manipulated into a duel with Sadeas and killed by that worthy. Presumably, he was Tanalan’s mysterious backer, and it defies all logic that he wouldn’t have posessed any shards. Yet, despite everything, in WoK Sadeas still only has the shardplate that he must have inherited and that he started the wars of unification in, at Kholin bros side.
EvilMonkey @34:
Why would Shallan’s inherent personality traits that she used to create Veil disappear if she gets rid of personas? I never understood the notion that she somehow put these traits into personas like in a safe deposit box and lost access to them as Shallan. This is blatantly not the case.
Veil’s attraction and danger to Shallan isn’t that she posesses some of her traits (turned up to 11, so that they often become more hindrance than help, while others are completely suppressed and repudiated because they link her to the past) – it is that she doesn’t have Shallan’s history. Which comes perilously close to denying her Truths and creates a major obstacle for further progress towards self-awareness.
@39: The Born Unto Light chapter works very well to highlight how Dalinar slowly becomes addicted to the Thrill, like a drug. Without it, he cannot feel anything. His whole world is dark, gray, somber, lifeless up until “light” is born. And then he can momentarily feel without the thrill. I invite all to re-read this chapter and to pay attention to the contrast in between the dark gloomy tavern and the beautiful mansion where little Adolin was born.
I think clues are the Thrill amplified natural traits Dalinar had and turned them into something very negative. At this point in time, he already had no control over it.
@40: In WoR, Adolin mentions he only became a soldier after his uncle Gavilar was murdered because he was hoping killing those who killed his uncle would make his father feel better and being back the man he once was. Now why would Adolin want to bring back the pre-Gavilar’s death Dalinar is beyond me because this man was a wreck, but this is what the WoK narrative is saying. Adolin also later mentions having become a soldier, despite his reluctance.
And there is Dalinar saying he wished he had never needed to turn Adolin into a soldier.
All of these passages which happen in both WoK and WoR are in direct contradiction with the canon of OB. Even if we allow some leeway over how Adolin was raised to become a soldier within a warcamp, we cannot denied he stood in a uniform, hanging around with soldiers, at 15. In WoK, Adolin specifically says he hadn’t become a soldier until after Gavilar was killed and yet here he was, being a soldier, at 15. Dalinar calls him “soldier”, so huh this directly contradicts the canon of WoK.
I agree it seems unrealistic to think Adolin could have gotten away with just being “a duelist” but Dalinar seems to think along those lines in WoK. During Adolin’s very first duel (I think this is the scene), he thinks to himself he wished he hadn’t been force to turn Adolin into a soldier because he knew his son didn’t like the warfare. In OB, while it is impossible to know what Adolin really thinks of warfare, we can’t say Adolin expresses very strong negative sentient over it. He goes as far as admiring the concept of the “true soldier” always comparing himself to it unfavorably.
It is also important to mention Adolin doesn’t view himself as a “general” nor a “military man”: he views himself as “a duelist”.
I agree Dalinar reprimanding Adolin over his uniform seems out of context. Adolin was already a soldier, at 15, and was already told to wear the proper uniform. The narrative says whenever reprimanded Adolin just tried harder, so we can assume young Adolin would have done his best to wear the proper uniform for the future. When did he even have the time to built up his fopish teenager phase and his relationship with the tailor given about a year later he will be gone for the Shattered Plains? And how is it so many soldiers seem to know Adolin, personally, when he comes back home in OB? Adolin was a teenager when he left, not a man in a position of command, a teenager who dressed in too elaborated clothes most people had dismissed as foolish. How come soldiers know him in a personal basis? 6 years is a lot at this age!
So how does Brandon make all the pieces fit together? I have no idea. There are a lot of contradiction with Adolin’s character in OB.
I will admit there is a rational for Adolin’s blind admiration of Dalinar: he never knew his father during his worst barbarous phase. He only saw the all-acclaimed general. There however were many witnesses of what happened at the Rift, how come Adolin knows so little of the truth? Every soldiers knew the orders came from Dalinar, soldiers Adolin would have later fought with at the Shattered Plains, how come no one ever speaks of this day? I can buy Adolin being told a lie, I can buy a secret being kept if few enough people do know about it, but if most people do not know about Evi, everyone knows Dalinar ordered the torching of the Rift, not Sadeas. I was baffled by this: how much of it was Adolin being told a lie and how much of it was Adolin making up his own version of the event and refusing to hear the truth?
All in all, of all characters, I think Adolin has the most holes within his narrative. I would love to hear what Brandon has to say on the matter because, as a reader, those holes are making it harder to appreciate the narrative. Adolin is just too important as a character to have so many hard to resolve inconsistencies within his narrative.
On Evi and Toh: We do not know what it was they asked for which took time negotiating. We can only guess. My personal guess are they argued over the ownership of the Plate. Did you notice how it is always referred to as either Evi’s Plate or Adolin’s Plate? Never Dalinar’s second set of Shards?
On Shallan: I agree with you and made the same commentary above also in response to Evil Monkey. Why would Shallan lose her traits if she gets rid of Veil/Radiant? There are theories, on the fandom, Veil/Radiant are deposit boxes where Shallan put stuff she didn’t want to deal with, such as he “supposed love” for Kaladin, but I feel this isn’t what the narrative is suggesting. The noblewoman example is prime material.
All in all, Shallan does not need Veil nor Radiant to be bold and/or responsible: she can be those things without them. Worst, they are such extremes, they are nuisance more than help. Radiant is heartless and cold while Veil is a manipulative thrill junkie who thinks she is so amazing she never makes mistakes. Both are missing what makes Shallan, Shallan and both aren’t, well Shallan.
@40
EvilMonkey @34:
Why would Shallan’s inherent personality traits that she used to create Veil disappear if she gets rid of personas? I never understood the notion that she somehow put these traits into personas like in a safe deposit box and lost access to them as Shallan. This is blatantly not the case.
Getting rid of Veil would not rob her of the personality traits that Shallan puts into her. We as readers know this. But Shallan doesn’t believe she possesses these traits by herself, at least not since she learns her 4th Truth. That was the turning point. She used Veil in the manner she was supposed to be used back in WOR, and she exibits Veil-like traits even when she wasn’t playing the role. Since saying her 4th Truth, not being able to hide from herself anymore has sent her self-worth into a deadly downward spiral.
Much of the Cosmere magics work with the fundamental principles of intent and belief. Basically one needs to believe something to make the magic work. We see it all throughout the novels, from Marasi with the Bands to Vivenda’s initial use of Breaths. In Shallan’s case, losing Veil before she rediscovers herself in Veil won’t wipe out those traits, only her recognition of them. She’ll lose them, not because they aren’t there but because she will no longer know how to get to that place within herself. That’s why I say assimilation over banishment.
@41: I know that, and was more aware of it after finishing a first read, but it doesn’t make Dalinar more relatable or enjoyable to me. Maybe I’m supposed to hate Shallan instead, because she has more free will and ‘should know better,’ but I simply don’t.
On Dalinar. My enjoyment of his story line all depends on where it goes in the future, and how Brandon makes it work but there is one bit from Bruised and broken that I want to point out.
He could vaguely remember a time when facing lesser challenges hadn’t sated him as much as a good fight against someone capable. What had changed?
Emphasis mine. Even here at this horribly low point in his life, when under the thrall of supernatural addiction Dalinar is QUESTIONING HIMSELF AND HIS ACTIONS.
EDIT: @41 What Keisler said back in Mistborn can be true to ALL of the Cosmere “There’s always another secret.”
Isilel @40. When did Mraize say that the Ghostbloods plan to export Sja-Anat somewhere else in the Cosmere? I interpreted Mraize’s note to Shallan as just wanting Sja-Anat for the Ghostbloods own purposes. Those purposes are not limited to elsewhere in the Cosmere. It could eaqually be for some purpose on Roshar. If I am wrong, then so be it.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@40 @45
Thanks Musespren. I wanted to ask the same question. Furthermore, would it even be possible to export an Unmade? I’m sorry if the answer to the latter questions is obvious. I am still struggling with Cosmere-wide implications of things and I am still pretty clueless regarding Realmatic Theory 8)
@42: Shallan doesn’t believe she possesses those traits by herself which is why she needs to get rid of Veil/Radiant. As long as she is gong to use them to get the traits she believes she is missing (which are amplified to the point of being nuisances), she will not progress. Hence, I stand by my original stance: Shallan needs to get rid of Veil and Radiant to further progress. She needs to accept she never needed them and considering her high emotional attachment to them, especially Veil, she may never use them as mere disguises, hence she may have to discard them completely.
Shallan is the only one able to lose Veil: no one can take Veil away from her. Only she can make the decision of killing the persona. I personally find this would be a powerful moment if Shallan were to make the conscious choice of destroying Veil/Radiant.
@43: I don’t think we are supposed to hate on any of the character. I think it is realistic different readers with different backgrounds would react to same characters in a different manner. I do not hate Shallan, but I did find her arc was a difficult to appreciate read.
@47 I think it will happen eventually, she just needs time to get there. At least she’s finally moving in the right direction
48: I agree and I do think some of this “time” will happen during the planned time gap. Brandon warned us he planned for things to happen during the time gap. He warned us not every reader will like it though he expects some will. Whatever he is planning, he knows it won’t be unanimously loved.
@49 Remember how the epilogue was Hoid/Wit doing a commentary on the nature of art? I can’t help but feel Brandon is getting a little Meta there
@36 Gepeto
I really am beginning to think that is the crux of the confusion. I feel like you had a discussion with someone where they felt Veil’s interest in Kaladin was how Shallan really feels, so to prove that person wrong, Veil cannot have any connection with Shallan so by extension Shallan does not really care about Kaladin. So to clarify once more, I do not care about the love triangle whatsoever. You are perfectly entitled to, and by all means enjoy or feel however you wish regarding it. The fact of the matter is whatever interest Shallan has in Kaladin (whether it is a crush, true love, confusion, or a random itch she just felt like scratching, call it whatever you want), it was exhibited when Shallan was Shallan. Not Shallan wearing Veil, not Shallan wearing Radiant. It was when Shallan was Shallan, and even before Veil and Radiant became a “thing”. So it has nothing to do with what she has to do with Veil and Radiant in my opinion. That is why I feel we are all getting bogged down with semantics. Whether she “gets rid of” Veil and Radiant, or whether she “absorbs them” or “assimilation”, at the end of the day Shallan is Shallan. She hates herself and is denying herself. As per Wit, when she realizes it has always been Shallan, then she will heal. If that for Gepeto means “getting rid of them”, while for EvilMonkey it means “assimilating them back into the whole”, it still means the same thing. Shallan is Shallan, and she deserves to be happy, regardless however that happiness manifests. People can think it is the wedding with Adolin, or people can think its really Kaladin, or people can think she wants to be by herself. Whatever. All that matters as far as Wit is concerns is she realizes the destruction of her family is not her fault and she shouldn’t cast herself in a never ending torment of damnation because of it. So feel free to continue to argue with that person about how Shallan really feels in the love triangle, but for me at least, regarding the healing of Shallan, it has nothing to do with who she has more hearts over her head for. However many hearts were there, they were there before Shallan got all Veily and Radianty so that is where/when it would have more bearing on the love triangle. The love triangle of which I have no interest in discussing.
@40 Isilel
Glad I elaborated on your points accurately. I didn’t want to misrepresent you.
@41 Gepeto
Regarding the witnesses at the Rift. The order of operations is this
Dalinar returns from the ambush
Dalinar meets with the generals privately in the command center.
Sadeas and Dalinar talk alone about stalling the scribes from sending any information about Dalinar’s return to Gavilar
Dalinar returns to the command tent telling Amaram, Teleb and so on to attack
Dalinar then turns to Sadeas and tells him “Send word for the men to prepare the oil and flaming brands. We march”
After they have taken the wall, Dalinar has a messenger summon his elites and get his own barrels of oil. Sadeas then meets up with him inside the walls, above the city. Dalinar commands to burn it. Teleb provides a dissenting opinion. Dalinar and Sadeas then reply, and then the barrels of oil begin to flow in that particular location. When the people start to flee Dalinar changes his mind, but Sadeas says he already carried out Dalinar’s earlier command regarding the fleeing messenger. To kill anyone fleeing and Sadeas decided to have his men start the fire from the other end as well to truly hammer in the message. So what we see is that privately Dalinar made those commands, but publicly Sadeas carried them out. So for me those sequence of events confirm how the lie of Sadeas being the one to burn down the Rift could have been carried out.
@46 BirD
Theoretically it is very difficult but not impossible to take an Unmade off planet. The unmade are cognitive shadows of herald or higher power level. Cognitive shadows are tied to the investiture of the shard so they cannot leave. However, in WoB, as well as evidenced by Zahel, we know it is possible for a cognitive shadow to worldhop. Just we do not know the function, and it seems to be very difficult. Though it is possible for cognitive shadows to leave, we do not have any indicators to know whether or not the Ghostbloods intend to take Sja-anat off planet (as AndrewHB said). They could want to, or could have no intention to. We do not know at this point.
@51
I for one never had the ASK triad in mind when arguing my point, but regardless we are all wanting the same thing, for Shallan to pull out of the downward spiral represented by fragmenting her personality. The crux of the argument seems to be the path she takes for healing. I think she’s on the right track though she still has a ways to go. Feel free to disagree; I’m sure there are people on either side of this line.
In regards to the One:
If the Irali origin story is meant to be an analog for Adonolasium then why 7? The magic numbers identified in the Cosmere have been 3 for the types of magic systems on Sel, Scadrial and Roshar, 10 for Roshar, 9 for Braize and Odium, and of course 16. So what’s the deal with 7? Could that be Autonomy’s magic number? I say Autonomy because of some of the similarities I am seeing between the shard and the people. Of course WOB says that not all Shards are associated with a number so the theory is more in the line of a wild ass guess but it’s not outside the realm of possibility, at least IMO.
@52 EvilMonkey
I didn’t say you were bringing up the ASK triad. Sorry, the reason I included you in my post to Gepeto was I felt Gepeto was focusing on the wording because that wording would have affected her argument regarding the ASK triad. My point was regardless if she called it one thing, or you called it another, her bringing in the ASK triad wasn’t what we were originally discussing, nor based on what I went into would it affect what we were all discussing. I did not mean to imply you were discussing the ASK triad. Also I do agree with you, I just felt regarding Gepeto the semantics was preventing understanding on all sides.
As to 7, i believe they were referring to how many “lands” or planets they have migrated to over time. That Roshar is the 7th time. Personally I think it is literal, but it could have greater meanings.
So dos anyone else pronounce Jezrien as Yeszrien (in the same way that Jasnay is Yasnah)? This quote by Evi makes me thing that the J is supposed to have a ‘Y’ sound.
On another note this is by far the most difficult re-read style to follow along. The conversation style blog really doesn’t work for me. There’s no flow to the writing and a lot of extra fluff which has nothing to do with the Stormlight Archive.
@@@@@ 54, DavidW – I was pronouncing all the J’s as hard J’s (including Jasnah) until my husband recently got all the audiobooks. I then realized I pronounce pretty much everything wrong. You are correct that Jezrien is is supposed to be pronounced like Yezrien.
I’m sorry you don’t like the re-read format. I enjoy it because it precisely because it is conversational which makes me feel more invited to comment, but I will pretty much read anything Stormlight Archive related regardless of the format. :)
@51: I still think my point is being hammered down in the wrong manner. Ignore the love triangle. The reason of my thinking has nothing to do with it. Yes, I do think my reasoning does apply to the love triangle which is why I mentioned it, but not I did not craft a theory I liked in response to someone else having crafted a theory I disliked. I consider myself smarter than this. I understand why you would get this impression, but I feel my argumentation is being discredited for fear it may solely exist for the purposes of the love triangle.
During my re-read, I read, once again, the food heist chapter. In this chapter, Shallan impersonate a highborn lady. She disguises herself as this woman to steal her food, but when she does so, she starts thinking like her, behaving like her without actually wanting to. There are direct quotes of Shallan not wanting this awful woman to get into her head, but as along as she is wearing the disguise, she struggles to control it. This passage was, to me, proof enough Shallan’s abilities are not just physical, they are mental to. When she puts on a disguise, she doesn’t just change her physical appearance, she also alters how she thinks. Hence, going by this logic, whatever she thinks when she is Veil, whatever she says Veil thinks is external to her, because Veil isn’t her. In the same way as whatever this noblewoman she impersonate ends up thinking is not a reflection of Shallan’s inner thoughts: it is a by product of Shallan’s magic. She becomes those people and Veil, unlike the noblewoman, is someone Shallan created. Yes, I have agreed she did use some of her own characteristics to built Veil’s character, but the end product is not Shallan. It started from a mix in between Shallan and Tyn, but it grew into being Veil.
Another passage of interest I recently read is when Kaladin goes out to scout the lighthouse when they are in Shadesmar. Shallan thinks it is good he does it because he’s the only one who knows how to scout. She then proceeds to think Veil would know how to, but she would not use Veil because Veil is broken, Right here and there. The Veil persona knows about scouting because this is part of the “lie” Shallan made up around Veil. Shallan doesn’t know a thing about scouting, so if she were to put on Veil’s disguise, she would believe she can scout because Veil is not just a physical disguise, it is a mental one too, but she might fail because Shallan doesn’t possess this knowledge.
My personal thoughts are thus Veil is 100% pure fabrication of Shallan’s mind and if she did use some of her characteristics to built the persona, by the time we reach Shadesmar, she has morphed into being a person of her own. Her brain, the one Shallan, during her Wit conversation, says she has to map to whenever she is Veil (she doesn’t use those exact words) has evolved into being a person who is fundamentally different from Shallan. A lie. A great lie, but a lie Shallan tries to use as a truth, hence her problems.
That’s my line of reasoning. And yes, this line of reasoning does make Veil’s crush (Veil has a crush, Veil wants to accidentally get near Kaladin, Veil voices out clear romantic thoughts over Kaladin) entirely Veil and not Shallan. Whatever Shallan may think of Kaladin, I found no strong evidence it is romantic: a lot of readers interpreted some passages of the book as Shallan having romantic thoughts for Kaladin, but I find the same passages can be interpreted differently. In other words, opinions fluctuates, but I find evidences points towards Veil not being a fraction of Shallan. Hence, my take of Shallan needing to get rid of Veil differs from EvilMonkey in the sense his opinion (apologies if I misunderstood) is Veil is a part of Shallan she has taken out of herself to stuff into Veil whereas I believe Veil is an entity external to Shallan she created to see to a need but allowed to evolve nefariously to avoid being herself. Other evidence is Shallan telling Kaladin she is “too good at pretending”. Thus, my line of thinking is reintegrating Veil wouldn’t work and would be bad as Veil is not a part of Shallan. She is this evil aliases Shallan created which she needs to get rid of if she is to ever be herself as the temptation to become Veil will always be too strong.
Getting rid of or assimilate are very different and not a semantic argumentation. Of course, the end result may be the same, but both methods imply important differences as to what Veil/Radiant really are. YMMV, but that sums up my thoughts on the matter in a way I hope is clear.
To end the matter, I am slightly disheartened at hearing so many negative comments on the love triangle as if it were a burning coil we had to stay away from. My thoughts are we cannot ignore the love triangle if we are to have a discussion on Oathbringer as it is part of the narrative. I understand there are readers who hated it and are pleased to see it presumably gone, just as I understand some may have other topics of interest, but I fear when I hear comments implying this isn’t to be discussed. At all. Ever. I mean, it is a topic and yes, it is relevant to discussing Shallan’s character. And it kind of was relevant to the current chapter.
Hence, I am sorry to hear one important aspect of Oathbringer will not be discussed or will have to be avoided at all costs.
On the Rift: In the chapter at hand, Dalinar mentions how many soldiers were uncomfortably looking at him hoping he would stop the carnage as he always found a reason to do so, in the past. However, by the time Dalinar recovers enough of his spirit to call it off, it was too late. His initial orders have been carried too thoroughly, there were no escape path. Sadeas burned it. Those orders came from Dalinar, that I agree the soldiers wouldn’t know.
But those soldiers also saw the Blackthorn carry his barrels of oil, they saw him lead the charged. They may not have been privy to the war counsel, but it seems pretty unrealistic to think the did not know where the order came from. They sure know it was no accident as Gavilar tried to pretend it was. They also knew Dalinar was injured, grieving and disoriented as Adolin’s tale led us to believe. They may not know all of the truth, but they should know or, at least, guessed enough to add one and one together. Hence, my difficulty believing everyone bought the story Dalinar was not involved in burning the Rift. Too many people were involved for the secret to have been kept for so long. People always talk. There are always rumor. Were people so afraid of Dalinar they all kept their mouths shut?
For now is it enough to agree that both roads will lead to the the same place? I say this as being in the weird position for once of being able to understand both perspectives that are being talked about. Including the position of wanting to make sure the other person will get my definition, as well as understanding that it’s likely not to happen.
@@@@@ 57 – I agree! At least we are all hoping for Shallan to get better and to become “whole” (for lack of a better word, using it to mean functioning and living her life in a reasonably healthy manner – not in the Cosmere sense of un-broken) again.
@@@@@56 – I think that was a great clarification of your points, thank you for sharing. Also, FWIW, I don’t think the love triangle should be taboo either. You see this often, how people complain when romance is involved in a plot (the Captain America movies come to mind for me), but the reality is that romantic feelings are a huge part of life for people of all genders and orientations. It is also reality that many of us experience crushes even when we love or primarily have affection for another. This is not inherently wrong; our actions are what make it wrong. I disagree with you in that I do think Shallan has a SMALL crush on Kaladin, but I don’t think she ever intends to leave Adolin (her much better match, IMO) for him. In fact, we see that this is the case in the end of Oathbringer when Shallan asserts some dominance over Veil and chooses NOT to act on that crush (I realize you don’t think of Veil as part of Shallan, but I think this moment is powerful either way). I personally am a reader who thought the love triangle served a wonderful purpose in the story, allowing for both Kaladin and Shallan to grow. That said, I am happy that Shallan married Adolin and am hoping not to see thte Kaladin crush enter the picture again. This to me is the best resolution and the most lifelike. How many of us have had a brief crush on/infatuation with someone, realized we would never act on it because our partner is wonderful and is really the one for us, and moved on? I would guess the number is not small.
#51: Zahel is not a Cognitive Shadow. He’s a Sliver of Endowment, but we have no reason to think he’s anything but a physical body with an attached spirit, just like all the other “human” and Parsh people in the story. The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, because they are able to survive as non-physical “pure” cognitive/spiritual entities beyond the deaths of their bodies. Zahel/Vasher, aside from being sent back one time by Endowment, has shown no sign of doing so.
The interesting “halfway” people are Lift (halfway in the Cognitive Realm) and Szeth (spirit not firmly attached to his body). Interestingly, Lift is apparently the only one who can see Szeth’s spirit lag behind when his body walks. Connecting the two, I would expect Vasher to be able to detect Szeth’s loosely-attached spirit.
@56 Gepeto
Again I feel I have to stress no one said Veil is real. Anywhere. That is where I am getting confused why you are still arguing that. You feel she has to be “thrown away”, EvilMonkey feels she needs to be “assimilated”. I feel you are both saying the same thing with different words but you feel they are completely different. Yes the literal definitions are different but the way they are being employed is the same. In both cases you both think Shallan needs to accept those qualities in herself. EvilMonkey (forgive me if I misrepresent), is saying she needs to recognize those aspects of Veil are her own whereas currently she thinks she lacks them and are external from her. You are saying she needs to accept those qualities in herself separate from Veil. To me that is the same thing. Where the contension comes in, is you feel all by EvilMonkey using the word assimilate means that Veil is real and will take over Shallan, but that is not what EvilMonkey is saying at all (correct me if I am wrong). We all agree Shallan is always and has always been Shallan. We all agree that Veil and Radiant are not separate personalities as per WoB, and we all agree (or at least I believe we do) that Shallan needs to accept those aspects (aspect as in what I put forward in earlier posts, I am not saying aspect as in personalities) were her all along and not punish herself neverending for her past.
Ok at this point I would like an apology. I never said any of those things regarding the love triangle whatsoever. I never said anything negative about it. I never said we had to stay away from it at all. I never said to ignore it at all. I never said I hated it or wanted it gone. And finally I never said it was never allowed to be discussed at all. I will repost my prior post regarding the love triangle and bold what I wrote there. Now please tell me based on that where I said any of that.
So to clarify once more, I do not care about the love triangle whatsoever. You are perfectly entitled to, and by all means enjoy or feel however you wish regarding it. The fact of the matter is whatever interest Shallan has in Kaladin (whether it is a crush, true love, confusion, or a random itch she just felt like scratching, call it whatever you want), it was exhibited when Shallan was Shallan. Not Shallan wearing Veil, not Shallan wearing Radiant. It was when Shallan was Shallan, and even before Veil and Radiant became a “thing”. So it has nothing to do with what she has to do with Veil and Radiant in my opinion. That is why I feel we are all getting bogged down with semantics. Whether she “gets rid of” Veil and Radiant, or whether she “absorbs them” or “assimilation”, at the end of the day Shallan is Shallan. She hates herself and is denying herself. As per Wit, when she realizes it has always been Shallan, then she will heal. If that for Gepeto means “getting rid of them”, while for EvilMonkey it means “assimilating them back into the whole”, it still means the same thing. Shallan is Shallan, and she deserves to be happy, regardless however that happiness manifests. People can think it is the wedding with Adolin, or people can think its really Kaladin, or people can think she wants to be by herself. Whatever. All that matters as far as Wit is concerns is she realizes the destruction of her family is not her fault and she shouldn’t cast herself in a never ending torment of damnation because of it. So feel free to continue to argue with that person about how Shallan really feels in the love triangle, but for me at least, regarding the healing of Shallan, it has nothing to do with who she has more hearts over her head for. However many hearts were there, they were there before Shallan got all Veily and Radianty so that is where/when it would have more bearing on the love triangle. The love triangle of which I have no interest in discussing.
So, here are the bullet points from my post. I personally have no interest in the love triangle. Never said hate. I said interest. I am perfectly entitled to be interested in some topics over others. Just like how I said you are perfectly entitled to and by all means enjoy the love triangle. However, regarding this specific matter of confusion I felt the crux was the argument you had with someone else outside of this thread regarding if Veil’s feelings are “how Shallan really feels”. No one on either side of the discussion said that. No one in this entire discussion was arguing that. The “crush” that Lyn referred to, popped up before Veil and Radiant was a “thing”. So it is whether you think Shallan has a crush, or true love, or doesn’t care about Kaladin is where it would matter. Not Veil. So whether the feelings Shallan has about Kaladin are termed however they are to be termed, it would not change or affect the discussion we were having about Veil and Radiant. So again as I said, feel free to talk about the love triangle. Feel free to feel however you feel about the love triangle. Think whatever you wish about the love triangle. I personally have no desire to, and in this specific circumstance I do not see nor understand the cause for bringing it up. It is like we are discussing oranges the food and how they taste, and then someone mentions the color of the orange is not exactly orange so should be called vermilion. That person can totally disagree on the color. But I personally do not see how the color would come into play with the taste, and personally orange is orange to me so I have no reason or interest in discussing the topic. So All I said was that it is great you feel it should be called vermilion, but that is not why EvilMonkey feels it tastes sugary, while you think it tastes sweet. They elicit the same taste, regardless the color of the orange.
So if you still think I abhor the love triangle, or any of the other things you accused me of, please quote me in this thread showing where I said those things. Otherwise please apologize.
As to Dalinar and the Rift. Those were Dalinar’s elites that were summoned by the messenger with the barrels of oil. Not the army at large. His elites. They counted Kadash, and 50 men with two barrels of oil. They were lead, separate from the main army to the northern rim of the Rift. They then went to the hiding spot that we now know Evi was at. So far his men hurrying to obey, no problem except Teleb and Kadash. Then they walked back up, and the archers set fire to the bridge. A random soldier comes up pointing out Tanalan. Dalinar has a rope thrown down to pull him up. Dalinar then has his elites push back the regular troops opening a wide half circle, where only Dalinar and his closest men could hear. Then Sadeas arrived with his men. That is when Sadeas confirms that he ordered the archers to kill any leaving. So the only people to confirm or know Dalinar ordered the Rift was Sadeas, Teleb, Kadash and the few closest elites to Dalinar. So at least to me, keeping the secret seems plausible. You are entitled to disagree.
@57 BenW
Thank you. Maybe I was having trouble getting that point across to Gepeto, but that was my intention.
@58 Evelina
As I said earlier, I never said the love triangle was taboo. In fact in the past re-reads on Tor of the chapters where Adolin and Shallan had their moments, I said nothing. Why? Because as I said I just personally do not have any interest in it, so I see no reason to insert myself into the subject matter. By all means enjoy. Personally I just don’t care, and I am allowed to not care without it being painted as hatred. Which is why I request an apology from Gepeto
@59 Carl
actually Zahel/Vasher is a cognitive shadow. That is how the returned functions. WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e4995
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3895
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1537
and as to whether zahel/vasher the cognitive shadow would see szeth trailing soul
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127-salt-lake-city-comiccon-2017/#e5070
@@@@@ 60, scath – For the record, I wasn’t talking about you in my post. I was speaking in a broad sense, not about any individuals who have posted here. I am sorry if that was unclear. Of course we all enjoy different things in stories, and we are lucky Brandon includes so many various elements in the SA for us all to read.
Gepeto @56: You make some good points about certain instances to help prove your theory that when Shallan creates a disguise and/or impersonates somebody she changes both her physical and how she thinks. However, there are other scenes that help to disprove your theory. For example, the scene where Veil goes bar hopping in OB. If I understood your prior comments, you said that part of Veil was based on Tyn and that when she becomes Veil part of her thinks and acts as Tyn would have. If Shallan were to act as Tyn did when she Lightweaved into Veil, then Shallan would never had entered the bar not knowing everything to know about alcohol. Veil would not have allowed herself to get so drunk that she almost passed out. That Veil did not was not part of the plan. It was pure luck that Stormlight had the effect of eradicating the alcohol out of her body (a supercharged liver, as the case me be). In my opinion, Tyn tried to plan for every reasonable possibility. A woman in Tyn’s profession never left anything to chance when it came to one of her scams. The only reason that Shallan was able to best Tyn was the presence of Shallan’s Shardblade. That was a circumstance that Tyn could never had comprehended. In Roshar, it is unheard of for any female to have a Shardblade, let alone a teenager Lighteyed girl from an insignificant House. Tyn would have had no reason to know that Knights Radiant were starting to make a comeback. With the exception of Skybreakers (who the rest of the world that was as extinct as the rest of the KR orders), only one other person was far enough along on the path to KR to have their own Shardblade: Jasnah.
The point of my above rambling is that we cannot say conclusively one way or the other which theory is correct. (As an aside, I do not read any of your comments to say that you believe your position is cannon. Rather, I think you are trying to put forth a theory that you believe is strongly supported by the text.). We shall have to wait for future books to see who is correct; or if neither of us are correct.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@60: I think the conversation is going in circles. We all seem to agree Veil needs to be gone, we however do not agree on how. EvilMonkey (sorry for putting words into your mouth) believes Shallan needs to assimilate Veil whereas I believe she needs to rip her off. Of course, the end result would be equivalent: Shallan no longer uses the support of Veil/Radiant as she has been using them within OB. I however feel the method is important because in one case it implies Shallan is missing something out of herself by not reintegrating Veil whereas with the other it assumes Shallan merely believes she is unable to withstand life without becoming Veil. In one case Veil and Radiant are parcels of Shallan, parts of her she took away from her to put into other personas whereas in the other case Veil and Radiant are personas she created for needs by amplifying desirable characteristics she may possess but not enough to her liking. If the end result would potentially be the same, I still feel there is a distinction to be had which is important. YMMV on this one, but since I believe Veil/Radiant are intrinsically tied to Shallan’s powers, what they are exactly remains relevant.
For the rest, I think the confusion arises from many conversation elements perhaps being taken out of context on both sides. I can assure you I am not having any conversation with anyone else within the fandom on the matter of Shallan, not ones revolving around the theories I posted. In my above post, my intend had been to clarify what my personal thoughts were (as there seem to have been confusion on them). The list I made wasn’t solely made up of narrative elements being discussed here, it was also made up narrative elements having been discussed elsewhere: conversations, I shall insist I was not a part of. I just read them and since my thoughts didn’t seem to be clear enough, I thought it was appropriate to clarify them.
On the matter of the love triangle, I said:
I understand there are readers who hated it and are pleased to see it presumably gone, just as I understand some may have other topics of interest, but I fear when I hear comments implying this isn’t to be discussed.
I mentioned there were readers who hated the love triangle while others may think of it as a topic of interest just as I understood there were those who weren’t interested in it. I used plural here. Nowhere within my sentence did I single out any readers nor did I tie this sentence to your personal thoughts on the matter nor yourself. I used the word “readers” with an s. I have acknowledged other people may not have any interest within the topic and I respect this position. This was made as a broad statement.
It is true I am however disheartened at having been rebuffed thrice within this thread on topics I have pushed forward (not just by you). I did feel the love triangle was relevant here and I still think it is relevant to this re-read. I understand you, specifically and likely others, have no interest in it, once again, I respect this, but there was a strong insistence in your above posts on not discussing it.
I however did not mean to say you were trying to put a ban onto any discussion onto the love triangle. You however did say:
I am not here to discuss the love triangle so I will not continue that line of discussion. All I am discussing here is the function that Veil serves.
So to clarify once more, I do not care about the love triangle whatsoever.
While those aren’t expressing a direct hate towards the love triangle, but they are firm statements you will not discuss this topic. Again, you are perfectly entitled to enter any discussion of your liking and to ignore every discussion not of your liking: we all do. My response to those is it makes me feel sorry. I apologize if this came out wrong or if it was hurtful. My intentions were to say I’d be sorry if a part of the narrative I consider important were to potentially be skipped because no one is interested in discussing it which isn’t something I, as an individual, cannot control.
Since everyone seems to agree that Shallan’s behavior in OB needs correction I consider the matter closed from my end. I think that whatever is going on Realmatically with her, as long as she gets it done I don’t actually care which method she uses. I put forth what I thought needs to happen to accomplish this but only Brandon really knows how he will resolve her issues and I’m fine with whatever he chooses to make of it.
The love triangle is another debate that goes in circles. While we need more information, the fact is that everyone who cares about it has a rooting interest. Without that information people will continue to argue their case. I’m game to talk about anything but I do so knowing that the arguments for or against anyone’s rooting interest will remain inconclusive.
On Cognitive Shadows: it’s clear that I simply don’t like the definition of that term. Which of course means that Brandon Sanderson is wrong about it ….
OK, even I’m not quite that arrogant.
@62 Think of it as extreme method acting. EDIT: Sorry I jumped ahead to comment without reading the stuff in between. I didn’t mean to reopen old sores.
@62: Of course, I cannot say my position is canon. I can only say: “This is how I am interpreting the textual. The clues and hints we have seen made me believe this is the right interpretation”, but as you are rightly pointing out, up until Brandon firmly makes a statement, my interpretation remains my interpretation or a theory. Of course, I believe in my theory for all of the above reasons I mentioned and I haven’t found enough evidence, yet, to convince me this is the wrong one to support. Time will tell and perhaps future WoB, but unlike the theory on whether or not Shallan has a personality-related mental illness which has been denied by the author, this one is likely to remain until proven wrong.
Canon would be how Shallan manages the noblewoman persona, but not everyone reads the same elements into this scene as I do.
On Veil and Tyn: I do not think Veil was made to be a carbon copy of Tyn, but I meant to say Tyn was part of the inspiration SHallan used to create Veil. Her entire outfit is totally based on Tyn and, upon her first apparition, Veil was meant to take over Tyn’s place at a Ghostblood meeting. So while Veil is not Tyn and wasn’t made up to be Tyn, I think the narrative is suggesting Tyn, at the very least, was a strong source of inspiration Shallan used to create Veil. Just as Shallan uses Jasnah as an inspiration to create Radiant: the end product is not Jasnah, but it was based, in part, on Jasnah.
Artists take their inspiration within various sources. Hence, I have no issues believing Shallan, when she made-up Veil/Radiant, used a mix in between people she knew and admired while drawing into some of herself to create them. Didn’t Brandon himself say there was some of him in many of his characters though none are readily him? I view it exactly in the same manner.
However, once the persona created, my impressions were Shallan kept on adding to the role. When she goes to bar-hop in OB, she decides Veil would have this knowledge, Veil would know how to handle herself though, at this point Veil is not as strong as she will later be, and Shallan is able to worry about not convincing others of Veil’s authenticity. It is why she goes over-board, because she doesn’t know how to act and Veil wasn’t fleshed-out well enough, at this point in time, to take over and pretend she does know. The way I read it is Shallan initially just adds into Veil stuff she thinks Veil needs to pretend to know for her disguise to become plausible. In those scenes, she needed Veil to pretend to be tough, so she adds the alcohol thing. Of course, this has nothing to do with Tyn, the Tyn’s inspiration was more in the dressing and the general attitude then the behavior.
I personally find it horribly convenient Veil always is what Shallan thinks she needs at any given point in time (loke oh Veil can scout! Really? Since when? Oh Veil cares about urchins! Really? Since when?) which kind of give credence to the argument of Shallan merely building up a role with more and more layers as she uses her more and more.
@64: I agree we can all agree we all want Shallan to become, well herself again. I agree to shelve this until we get more information or someone has something new to add to it.
On the love triangle, I thought there was more to discuss then just the outcome. Apart from wondering if Brandon is done with it or not which is going to end up by everyone saying their gig, there are discussions to be had on whether or not we believe the truth Shallan didn’t tell Adolin will matter or not, what kind of hardships are we foreseeing for those two without getting into the love triangle, the similarities in between both characters and how Brandon may have subverted expectations by creating chemistry where few initially saw any, how will Adolin lack of powers come to play within their union and what Shallan meant when she says: “This the best thing which ever happened to you” as how can it be a good thing Adolin is practically doomed to die in the upcoming Desolation out of being the only unworthy of a Nahel Bond Kholin, how will the Ghostbloods will come to play in it and, of course, is Veil’s crush going to be relevant or not or will Brandon take the opportunity of the one year gap to deal with it behind closed doors. We could also discuss if we liked the actual arc, if we think it was played well or if we think it is missing the omph-factor or if it is too unclear.
There are a lot of discussions to have had on the romance arc which aren’t tied to readers merely stating their positions on how they feel about the outcome. Of course, there is some of that, but I didn’t feel the whole discussion would necessarily go down in circles, but YMMV.
And yeah, perhaps it will be inconclusive, but a lot of discussions ultimately ends up being inconclusive, not just the romance oriented ones.
@63 Gepeto
Yeah, again I think the distinction is splitting hairs for no practical reason but we have all beat this horse into paste.
As to the accusation of hating the love triangle, your full post was
To end the matter, I am slightly disheartened at hearing so many negative comments on the love triangle as if it were a burning coil we had to stay away from. My thoughts are we cannot ignore the love triangle if we are to have a discussion on Oathbringer as it is part of the narrative. I understand there are readers who hated it and are pleased to see it presumably gone, just as I understand some may have other topics of interest, but I fear when I hear comments implying this isn’t to be discussed. At all. Ever. I mean, it is a topic and yes, it is relevant to discussing Shallan’s character. And it kind of was relevant to the current chapter.Hence, I am sorry to hear one important aspect of Oathbringer will not be discussed or will have to be avoided at all costs.
So first step. To end the matter (the matter being regarding Veil and Radiant which is in response to me) you are disheartened from hearing so many negative comments on the love triangle. We are in this thread. In this thread I commented on how I do not care about the love triangle. Therefore your post was referring to comments in this thread, therefore you were referring to me. This is supported by the next bolded portion. In this portion you state there are comments implying it isn’t to be discussed. Then added at all. Ever. That is clearly in response to my own comments especially considering you are referring to the current discussion and is again referring to me falsely by exaggerating and misrepresenting what I said. I respect that you enjoy talking about the love triangle. I personally do not. It is a shame that such a fact saddens you, but there is nothing I can nor should do about that. I wish you luck in your discussions regarding that subject matter with others. I choose to accept your apology despite how it is worded and choose to drop the subject with you. Thank you.
@65 Carl
Lol, I can respect that.
Is it just me or does Renarin’s spren sound like a corrupted passion spren? Or maybe all corrupted spren take on the appearance of passion spren since Odium is passion?
I forget what passion spren look like but I do remember what a normal Truthwatcher spren looks like and how Glys differs from the profile. For the record, the spren corrupted by Sja-anat look altered from their normal counterparts; they are not generic in appearance or else they would not be so dangerous.
@69 Tommy
I could definitely see where the comparison is coming for you considering this description found on Tor’s break down on all the spren
passionspren, like tiny flakes of crystalline snow, floated down in the air around them.
However it is mentioned that they are only seen around romantic passion and given Renarin’s implied life, I do not think he was romantically involved with anyone to attract a passion spren corrupted or otherwise. So I agree with EvilMonkey, I think it is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren.
@68: As I said, yes I was disheartened at my attempts to bring in the love triangle angle into the discussion did not work out. Yes, it is perfectly within your right not to want to engage a given conversation, but from my side, I really felt like I was presenting a hot coil, hence the metaphor. My purpose was not to accuse you or anyone, it however was to state how I felt things were going to go down. We’ve been discussing this book for weeks, we are all doing our best with, well, textual support only. Yes, I might have gotten carried away with my response, but I was on the defensive. I felt I was being accused of bringing in the unwanted love triangle angle which granted was not the intention. I realize this now.
I mean, I am not here to accuse anyone of anything just as I will assume no one else is trying to accuse others of anything. I don’t want to accuse anyone of anything. I am here to discuss aspects of a series I love. I am however a human being, sometimes, some responses make me feel defensive. I am a controversial enough poster, I am a controversial enough “pseudo” member of this fandom. I always feel like I don’t belong, like the entirety of the SA fandom would just breath easier if I were to go hide under a rock to never emerge again. I feel like my thoughts are badly received one time out of two, so yes, I got very defensive when you stated, twice, your non-desire to discuss this given aspect of the narrative.
Again, this was your legitimate right not to want to discuss this just as you had the legitimate right to state it. I however got really defensive because of my past as a poster, because I know how many others feel about me. It was unfair to you and I apologize for my behavior. I will try not to get defensive again and to stick with the book discussion.
Agreed that Heleran’s death shouldn’t be a big deal, although grief isn’t always rational when it comes to such things.
The WoB about the rhythms was really interesting :)
And argh! I can’t believe I never put the splitting/rejoining of the One together with the possibility of referring to Adonalsium (although I have at times wondered if ‘unite them’ has a greater meaning). Is the implication that Adonalisum split himself?
On the spectrum of Dalinar/Moash/Amaram awfulness, Dalinar is the least awful at this point. I don’t like him here either (and I’ve never been one for glorifying war, etc) but his scenario here is in the heat of a battle and while in thrall to a magical addiction which ultimately ends up being of Odium. I think he does have some remorse over it, but lacks the self awareness/emotional intelligence to articulate it. So he gets maybe a few points in his favor.
Count me as one who thinks Shallan needs to be comfortable in herself and recognize she has what she needs within herself. The personas are one thing, but not if used to ‘replace’ herself. But I agree that the minutiae of what this will look like has been beaten to death at this point (especially from the perspective of somebody who’s catching up after several weeks away and reading what feels like the same arguments over and over again).
The WoB about cognitive shadows (another thing I feel like i don’t know as much about as I should) is interesting, although their appears to be a slight inconsistency (emphasis mine in both cases).
In the second link he says:
A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.
When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.
Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.
But in the third he says:
It means, basically your soul– It’s the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but… you are usually Invested with something, that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then.
Granted, he acknowledges that even in-universe people don’t actually agree about this.